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MCirba

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Is there a better turn in the British Isles?
« on: November 24, 2015, 02:39:33 PM »
...than was facilitated by the creation of three new holes at Renaissance Club in recent years?

The purchase of land closer to the sea from The Honourable Company of Edinburgh Golfers permitted the Renaissance Club to extend their loop to its logical conclusion at the edge of the sea, following an already wonderful hole #8 with a skyline green on the par three 9th and a cape-type hole along the cliff edge on the 10th.

Following are some recent photographs of the 3 holes in question, as well as pics of 14 and 18 because...well, just because.





















« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 02:41:39 PM by MCirba »
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Rich Goodale

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Re: Is there a better turn in the British Isles?
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2015, 02:56:40 PM »
Many, Mike.

St. Andrews New and Eden, Troon, Brora, Kingsbarns, Dornoch just off the top of my head and not even thinking about England, Ireland and Wales.

You need to get out more.... :)
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MCirba

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Re: Is there a better turn in the British Isles?
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2015, 04:42:14 PM »
Rich,

It's why I asked the question!   ;D

I do hope it leads to discussion on some of the best turns in links golf.

Arguably, the turn of 8,9,10 at St Andrews Old Course is the weakest portion of that course from an aesthetic and challenge aspect.

North Berwick similarly is not a highlight, although Gullane #1's is pretty good but not to the level of Renaissance Club in my opinion.

Lytham has a dandy turn, as well, although 10 is a bit befuddling.
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Kalen Braley

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Re: Is there a better turn in the British Isles?
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2015, 05:03:50 PM »
Damn it Mike,

You ruined it by posting all those pictures!!   ;D
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Benjamin Litman

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Re: Is there a better turn in the British Isles?
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2015, 05:55:25 PM »
Put the specifics aside and you have a fascinating subject for discussion: How much emphasis do architects place on the turn when designing links courses with a traditional out-and-back routing (assuming that is a necessary condition/limitation of the debate)? We know architects think about the opening and closing holes, but does the turn garner any special attention? I don't know the answer, but I do know that in designing his "ideal" course in America based of his experiences in the British Isles, C.B. Macdonald originally placed some of the best holes at National Golf Links around the turn (recall that the nines were originally reversed, so that the current stretch from 17-2 comprised the original "turn").
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Rich Goodale

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Re: Is there a better turn in the British Isles?
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2015, 07:16:59 PM »
Quote from: MCirba on November 24, 2015, 04:42:14 PM
Rich,

It's why I asked the question!   ;D

I do hope it leads to discussion on some of the best turns in links golf.

Arguably, the turn of 8,9,10 at St Andrews Old Course is the weakest portion of that course from an aesthetic and challenge aspect.

North Berwick similarly is not a highlight, although Gullane #1's is pretty good but not to the level of Renaissance Club in my opinion.

Lytham has a dandy turn, as well, although 10 is a bit befuddling.

Hi Mike

To be honest, I haven't played the new holes @ Renaissance, but I did walk the land with Mr. Doak with ~20 GCAers, ~4-5 years ago.  At the time I thought that there was a bit of awkwardness in the renovation in order to make sure that they could fit in the signature "Cape" hole along the Firth.  Did that stretch flow naturally for you?  If so, it was a genius of routing and construction.

Rich
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James Brown

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Re: Is there a better turn in the British Isles?
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2015, 08:05:24 PM »
Turnberry is pretty nice.  So is Ballybunion. 
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Peter Pallotta

Re: Is there a better turn in the British Isles?
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2015, 08:09:29 PM »
Mike - thanks for the photos of Renaissance. They were of particular interest to me today because, yesterday, on your "Glorious Gullane" thread, I'd posted this:

"Alas, in the months and years ahead will there ever be a developer and/or architect willing to do so little? And, equally, would many of today's "retail golfers" make the pilgrimage to any new course that dared to? And, perhaps most importantly, even if the architect dared to and the retail golfer did, would designing such a course be a mistake? Is it just my nostalgia that likens simpler with better? "

Now, I know that it is almost embarrassing to compliment Tom D, because he gets so many compliments and because if you compliment him people either think your want something from him and/or they call you a funny name. But goodness gracious, he does seem for my tastes to do things right so often (and in so many different ways) that he deserves the compliments.  In this case, it was to dare to do "so little" and keep it so "simple". 
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Sean_A

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Re: Is there a better turn in the British Isles?
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2015, 08:49:38 PM »
Dornoch's turn is pretty damn fine...not sure its up to RC standards with that rather dodgy par 3.  Mind you, RC has a bit of hitch in its 10th.  Ballybunion's is very, very good. People may not recognize it, but Saunton East's turn is excellent.  Pennard too should be mentioned.


Ciao
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Sam Krume

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Re: Is there a better turn in the British Isles?
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2015, 03:39:48 AM »
I do like the turn at Deal, a couple of crackers. Not the most scenic I will give you that but some really good golf.
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Ed Tilley

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Re: Is there a better turn in the British Isles?
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2015, 03:46:01 AM »
8,9,10 at RCD are not the shabbiest holes on the planet.
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Richard Fisher

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Re: Is there a better turn in the British Isles?
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2015, 04:10:43 AM »
nor are 8, 9, and 10 at Brancaster - especially 8 and 9. Two of the best holes in the world.
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Richard Fisher

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Re: Is there a better turn in the British Isles?
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2015, 04:13:59 AM »
likewise 8, 9, and 10 at Westward Ho! One of my own all-world par threes is followed by one of Ran's all-world par fives, and then the first real encounter with the rushes. Fabulous stuff.
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Thomas Dai

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Re: Is there a better turn in the British Isles?
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2015, 06:03:30 AM »
Narin & Portnoo - 8th, 9th and 10th


Atb
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Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Is there a better turn in the British Isles?
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2015, 06:57:34 AM »
Royal St George's 8-9-10 must be one of the best out there.

The run at Portmarnock is the best in Ireland for my money. Although RCD has a fabulous 8 and 9 and Ballybunion has a tremendous threesome too.

Royal Aberdeen's is good too.

Peter, the absolute first reason that I rate the Renaissance Club so highly is that TD's team pared back on the visuals, in particular with regards to the bunkering. For that reason, it feels right for the site and location.

Even so, his new holes at the turn utilise an horizon green, a cape tee shot, old stone walls and other tools, all great stuff but probably more focused on an aesthetic than any of the old links designers. This is no criticism. It is merely confirming your point that courses aren't built as simple any more.

This is also why I stated elsewhere that the thing I'm most intrigued by in the C&C Embo project is the final look of the bunkers. I know the rest will be excellent but I for one would like to see a course where less is more in this regard.
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MCirba

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Re: Is there a better turn in the British Isles?
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2015, 07:16:02 AM »
Peter and Ally,
Great point about the subdued architecture.   I guess we shouldn't be surprised that the father of "minimalism" had such a light hand on such sacred soil, but it was really great to see it practiced in person on the gound.

Rich,

The only ungainly part of that turn routing at Renaissance that one might quibble with is the walk backwards to the 10th tee.   In that glorious setting however, one would really have to be a grouch to complain.  Of course, one does have a bit of a steep climb to the 11th tee but again, if you feel strained just look off to your right and be happy to be on this side of the good earth.  :)
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 08:48:26 AM by MCirba »
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Tim Gallant

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Re: Is there a better turn in the British Isles?
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2015, 08:45:40 AM »
I'll throw a heathland course in the mix - Sunningdale Old. I would play a 3-hole challenge across 9,10,11 any day of the week. Also, are we counting halfway houses? The UK isn't great for pit stops, but the one at Sunningdale is world-class, especially when you consider that the New course intersects after the 10th as well.
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Sean_A

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Re: Is there a better turn in the British Isles?
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2015, 09:05:06 AM »
Curious, why is a turn 8, 9 & 10?  What happened to 11...or why have 8?   


Ciao
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MCirba

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Re: Is there a better turn in the British Isles?
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2015, 09:13:17 AM »
Completely arbitrary Sean. plus I didn't have any pictures of number 11. ;)
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Mark Pearce

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Re: Is there a better turn in the British Isles?
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2015, 09:26:15 AM »
I haven't played the new holes at RC.  However, the turn next door at Muirfield is pretty strong, and Dornoch has already been mentioned.
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MCirba

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Re: Is there a better turn in the British Isles?
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2015, 09:58:53 AM »
Mark,

Agreed that 8, 9, 10 at Muirfield is strong but I guess I'm thinking more of out and back type routings where the 9th doesn't come back to the house.

Also, I'm pretty sure you'd enjoy the 3 new holes at Renaissance Club.   

All,

For that matter, how many here who are commenting have seen or played the new holes?
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"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

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Mark Pearce

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Re: Is there a better turn in the British Isles?
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2015, 10:54:10 AM »
Mike,

I'm sure I would.  I played RC relatively soon after it opened and thought it was excellent and everything I have heard suggests that the new holes improve it.  A shame that one of the existing holes (a long par 4, possibly around the 13th in the original routing) had to go, it was a really good hole but if the course is better than it was than it was then the new holes must be excellent..
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In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Is there a better turn in the British Isles?
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2015, 12:03:16 PM »
That was the 12th, Mark.... I did love that green site.


I walked the land of the new holes on two separate occasions, both times with topo and environmental analysis in hand... This was prior to seeing Tom's solution which I think actually changed again after I did see it... Maybe he can confirm but I'm sure the environmental restrictions meant the routing of the new holes was altered in the end... I seem to remember the new 9,10,11 being a 3-4-4 straight swap for the old 1st, 2nd and 3rd. This left the old 12th and 13th in place with no need for the new par three at 15.... Could be wrong though...


So I haven't played them, Mike... And haven't seen them since they were built other than photos. I played the course not long after it opened.



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Mark Pearce

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Re: Is there a better turn in the British Isles?
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2015, 12:24:12 PM »
If you are right, Ally, and the old 12th is still there, that's great news.  As you say, a wonderful green site.
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In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Is there a better turn in the British Isles?
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2015, 12:28:52 PM »
Quote from: Mark Pearce on November 25, 2015, 12:24:12 PM
If you are right, Ally, and the old 12th is still there, that's great news.  As you say, a wonderful green site.


Sorry Mark,

[/size]I probably wasn't clear... The old 12th and 13th have gone... But I think the initial plan on the table was to keep those holes until environmental restrictions - or possibly some other considerations I know nothing of - changed that plan.[size=78%]


Ally
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