[JNC Lyon]

  Seth Raynor built replica par threes on many of his courses. Though no one ever observes this, I have notice that Donald Ross built two generic par threes, both of which were similar to Macdonald/Raynor/Banks replicas.


Ross Short Hole: This very similar to Raynor's Version of the Short Hole. This was often Ross's boldest green on the course. Two excellent examples are Oak Hill (West)'s 4th Hole, and Teugega's 7th Hole. Maybe Ross liked this hole so much because the Teugega hole was the site of his first ace. Another example, now softened, is the 12th at Brook Lea in Rochester, NY.

Ross Biarritz Hole: From what I have found, this hole was used more often than the short hole. The style was similar to Raynor in the bunkering and length. However, the green, instead of having a swale in front, is slightly raised. This means any high shots that land short will be rejected, but low running shots are accepted. Some good examples are 7 at Orchards, 6 at Pinehurst No. 2, 6 at Monroe, 17 at Oak Hill (West), 3 at Brook Lea, and old 12 at CC of Rochester, which is now a practice hole, but has the same green.

[Ken_Cotner]

I never thought of it before, but aren't #'s 6 and 15 at Pinehurst #2 awfully similar?  Long iron (for us mortals) to a very difficult green which sheds balls to either side?  Maybe #6 has more and tougher greenside bunkers?

I've never been so intimidated on a par-3 which has no possibility of a penalty stroke; and they both produce that feeling!

Ken

[JMD]

Two more from my course:  number 8 at Brae Burn falls into the Ross Biarritz category (although I don't like this label because it implies a swale missing on 7 at the Orchards and on the Brae Burn hole and an attendant division between two distinct sections of the green).  I do think that these holes belong together and are distinctively Ross.

I agree about the short holes and offer 6 at Brae Burn  --- where hitting the green gives you only a good chance at par and (maybe?) 10 at the Orchards -- where the green will give the women fits next year.  I say maybe because it is not the shortest of the par threes.  I think, however, it is short enough to fit into this group comfortably.

[Brad Klein]

Goodness, is this a stretch. If you review Ross' plans over the years he never had a model or a pattern in mind, never talked or wrote about it, and whatever similarity there is was probably more a function of unavoidability - 400 courses, that means 1,600 par-3s. I don't mean he had 1,600 different ones, but I know he had no clear template. The evidence presented above is totally unconvincing.

[Forrest Richardson]

Are you guys referring to Donald or Festus Ross?

[Doug Wright]

Brad,

Are you sure that Ross had no pattern? Unlike you I am no Ross expert but it seems to me that DR very much favored at least one long 220-230 yard par 3 on his courses. Those I've played: Minikahda #8, Wellshire #13, Wilmington Municipal (don't recall the number).

[Joe Hancock]

Forrest,

It was Betsy.

Joe

[Forrest Richardson]

Well, I'm not surprised. Betsy was a proponent of parallel fairway design. Specifically, the 13-hole format.

[Brad Klein]

Doug, you've made my case.

I'll admit Ross usually tossed in a long par-3. That's not a pattern for a hole design. He ran the gamut on those 210+ par-3s, from long forced carries (Worcester 4th) to uphillers to punchbowl greens (Wannamoissett 12) to long downhill shots (Brae Burn 17th) to uphill, semi-Biarritz (Orchards 7th).

Teugega's short little 7th hole, circa 135 yards to a green totally encased by 8 bunkers that partially hide the putting surface, is unique, though one could find some precedent for it at Rhode Island CC's 17th (1912). To claim that Ross was inspired by the 7th at Teugega because he made his first (and only) ace on it is laugable. He designed the hole in 1920 and aced it in 1923, after he had done half the courses he ever designed. Someone want to tell me that he retrofitted his courses or started designing short par-3s on its model?

Okay, so he usually designed a short, a medium lenth and a long par-3 on every course. That doesn't establish a thing about modeling hole design.

Forrest, you are on to something in the Ross lineage. Donald Ross was not only helped in design work by brother Alec Ross (1907 U.S. Open winner and longtime Detroit GC pro) and Aeneas Ross (genius behind Salem CC, later to return home where he became a sort of village idiot of Dornoch). There was the 3/4 sister (!) Beastia, who was, as we now know, the inspiration in shape and function for the famed slope on the back right of the 7th green at Pinehurst No. 2 - unfortnately removed by an Open chiropractor before the 1962 U.S. Amateur there. There is now a big movement (I mean really big) to restore it in time for the 2007 U.S. Open in the hopes of keeping scores above par.

[JMD]

Maybe another way to think about is that it is not surprising that someone who did so much work would create holes that resemble one another -- particularly ones as strong as those that we are discussing -- but that resemblance and repetition are different things.  There's also a long downhill par three at Salem, but it calls for a different shot and strategy than Brae Burn's 17th.  

[Forrest Richardson]

DR's use of a long-ish hole sets in motion a series of shaping and design directives, even if the resulting holes are much different from one another. I'd say the consistency to use a single long one-shot hole could be considered a pattern...and a pattern integral to the design.

Thank you Brad, for the family history.

[T_MacWood]

A few years ago Ron Whitten claimed he had identified a Ross par-3 that he repeated on a number of golf courses. Unfortunately I don't believe he described the characteristics of this prototype.

There is a similar par-3 at Canton Brookside and Shaker Hts. Both are played from an elevated tee to a wide but shallow green. The green has a spine running through the center perpendicular to the tee and the green (starting at the spine)is sort of flipped up across the back. The front of the green is guarded by a series of bunkers. If memory serves me there is a similar hole at Salem.

Even if there are a fairly large number of these prototypes--say 30--relatively speaking they would only be found on a small percentage of his designs.

[Mike Hendren]

Brad et al:

Ross routings at Memphis CC, Cherokee CC (Knoxville), Belle Meade CC (Nashville) and Richland CC (Nashville NLE) all featured par three tenth holes, as does Beverly CC off the top of my head.

Was this a common practice or just conincidental?

Regards,

Mike

[Ken_Cotner]

Brad et al:

Ross routings at Memphis CC, Cherokee CC (Knoxville), Belle Meade CC (Nashville) and Richland CC (Nashville NLE) all featured par three tenth holes, as does Beverly CC off the top of my head.

Was this a common practice or just conincidental?

Regards,

Mike

Ah, but 3 Ross courses within walking distance of each other (Pinehurst #2, Mid Pines, and Pine Needles) each have a par-5 #10.  With the pure number of his courses, one could probably find any pattern they want.

Ken

[PAW13]

Just got back from playing Charles River in the USGA Team Championship and enjoyed the golf course very much, especially the greens. Dave Miller ran a great event.

I read with interest the comments about Ross par 3's.  I have always felt that Ross always had two par three's that played the same distance.  They may have been different yardages on the card but when you factored in prevailing winds they played the same.

Take Charles River for example, they have five par threes (#4-150, #9-178, #11-223, #14-187, and #17-183, these were the yardages for the event).  If you notice there is the one long par 3 everyone is talking about and the one short par three.  The other three are with in 9 yards of each other and sure enough the club of choice each round was 5-iron to 7 iron, the first round I hit 6 iron on each one.  

I am no expert but I always thought one of the ideas behind golf course architechture is to hit as many different clubs in your bag, especially on the par three's.

As I think about Gulph Mills a course I will play this weekend they have a short par 3 #4, a long #17 and too very similar #6 & #14.  I always felt that Aronimink was the same way (I played my college golf and caddied there) you have one short #5, one long #8 and two that played the same yardage #14 & #17.

One more Ross's that come to mind with the same set up is Torresdale Frankford.  

[the old man]

i've been following this discussion out of my interest in ross courses.  played teugaga within the last week, so i have some familiarity with the 7th there.  incredible green surface.

i think that brad klein said it best in his first reply.  if i understood brad correctly, he was indicating that given the huge number of par 3's ross designed, by chance alone there are going to be many that are similar.  picking par 3s from 2, 3, or 10 or so of his courses as an example of a "pattern" in his design approach is a stretch.  and, am i wrong in thinking that most architects, for the sake of variety, try to include a short, medium length, and long par 3 in their creation?

i sense a need to overanalyze in this discussion.  there must be ross writings that give some notion as to his approach. and, if so, wouldn't a guy who has written a book about ross know about that?

[Jeff_Brauer]

In a prolific career, with many admitted "paper jobs" and less travel than their is today (I've copied holes in when I did the course in Indonesia, figuring, "What's chances someone will ever play this version AND the one in Texas?"

OF COURSE HE COPIED HIS OWN HOLES.

As I recall, Ron Whitten wanted to do a story title "separated at birth" featuring repetitive holes of both old and new architects.  He found 73 of the same par 3 holes in one day (or less) of researching the Tufts Archives.

The question does raise the philosophical issues of:

Is that bad?  Or does an architect owe his clients his "best stuff" rather than "unique holes?"

Are holes recognizable (generally) if put in different settings, reversed, etc.  I once had a young architect a few years ago, and to prove how much difference a shaper made, purposely had him put the exact same green plans on two nearby projects., built by two different contractors of varying quality.  You couldn't tell the greens were meant to be the same!  Not to mention, one company went out of their way to hide the path, tie in the slopes, etc.

Lastly, what constitutes a "unique hole?'  I have taken a general concept, flipped it, changed grass to sand bunkers or vice versa, staggered bunker heights to fit topo, angled the green a bit more to fit the site, etc.  At what point of fitting a concept green into a specific site does it morph from copy to new?

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