[archie_struthers]

Have you ever played a course that was challenging , in excellent condition , with spectacular  greens and surrounds , yet just didn't get a warm and fuzzy feeling ? 


It happened to me yesterday .  The course had so many good things going on but the visual clutter just overwhelmed me . It was just too much of everything , all at once .


The people and staff were so gracious that I'm inclined not to name the course , as it is immaterial to the question, any one else experience this in their travels ? 

[Tim Martin]

Archie-I played Inwood in Nassau County New York not long ago and liked the golf course. That said because of it's proximity to Kennedy Airport it is somewhat unnerving to have jets constantly coming in and out and at fairly low altitudes. I would think it would take some time to get used to this if it was your home golf course.

[David_Elvins]

Archie,


You would think after playing it for 40 years, you would be used to Pine Valley?

[archie_struthers]

Lol David I thought someone might proffer same .


No , I don't get this feeling at PV . There is plenty going on for sure , but it's muted . It's the genius of Crumps work there. Almost all the "lines of charm " are long , as are the greens undulations.  As tough as the greens are , if you have skill and vision as to speed you can lag putt. The fairways have movement but it is subtle. It's a slow death as its rolling to a stop. No collection areas , which somehow offend my eye.


Sure you could argue the edges of the carries on some holes are sharp , but the scope makes them work (think 2,6,17).


PV ust never gave me that same feeling as I experienced yesterday . Despite the numerous hazards,  they flow. The integration into the finished product is more pleasing .

[cary lichtenstein]

Yes, I went to the 1st tee of a course for the first time and there was so much going on, that I didn't know where to hit the ball, so I hit 2 drives, one each way, only to be confused where to hit my 2nd shot from either drive.


I will refrain from naming the course as well

[Tom_Doak]

Archie:


We have different definitions for this term.


For me, it's about all the little things:  planted trees and bushes, bad mowing lines, course furniture [yardage markers, tee signs, etc.] that distract the golfers and spoil the beauty of the architecture.  Where we consult, I try to look at the golf holes like a photographer does* and take out anything that clutters up the picture.  You would be surprised at how much difference it makes.


* although I do believe that bunkers should have rakes!

[Kevin_Reilly]

This "before" picture of the 4th and 10th tees at Woodmere Club (in a thread posted last year by Mike Nuzzo) illustrates the type of visual clutter that is consistent with Tom's post.  As noted in the original post, it's Brad Klein with the camera.

Thread:  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59568.msg1403252.html

[Tom_Doak]

Kevin,
That's a bit beyond what I was thinking!  Had I been consulting, I would have quoted Ronald Reagan, and his directive to Mr Gorbachev.

[Chris DeToro]

Absolutely.  I usually find this in the more manufactured courses that I've played where the unnatural features tend to clash with the terrain or are over bunkered or have too many lakes and ponds

[archie_struthers]

It s funny , I built a totally manufactured course but wanted it to be clean.  Tom hits the nail on the head , probably why I enjoy his golf courses . Not just because his greens Are so good but its clean .


When you have too much going on its just hard to enjoy the visual. I love broad contours!  Don't like micro contours on greens or too many humps in the fairway . Like cantered fairways that make you pay attention but not crazy hillocks that you struggle to mow and look so fake .

Clutter begone !

[Kalen Braley]

This to me is too busy.
 
Creek short, Water hazard right, bunkers every where, cart part short and left, OB fence farther left, parking lot and clubhouse in background.
 
Just too much going on..
 

[Bob Jenkins]

Kalen,


I do not know which course it is in your picture but to add to the clutter, the greenside bunker is a different style than the fairway bunkers which are busy enough and there also appears to be a creek running in front of the green. Also the sand appears to be inconsistent in color.


Bob

[Jim Nugent]

Kalen, if that picture you posted is cluttered, how do you feel about this one...



I'm partly playing around, but what does make the difference?  History?  Does the 18th at TOC somehow blend in with all those buildings?  Is more better in this case?   

[Jim Nugent]

Here are two more from TOC.  Do the disparate elements all come together in a way that does not jar your senses?...



and...

[Jon Wiggett]

Jim,

the buildings have nothing to do with the course so I would say that the 18th is not too cluttered. Tee shot on 17 is a bit of a mess though I agree on that.

Kalen,

to me the bunkers are simply too big. Also, the one in front of the green is not really needed as there is a stream running across in front to catch the short shot. I also wonder what the purpose of the post in the middle of the fairway is. I can clearly see where the middle of the fairway is without it so this is definitely clutter.

Jon

[Sean_A]

Don't like micro contours on greens or too many humps in the fairway . Like cantered fairways that make you pay attention but not crazy hillocks that you struggle to mow and look so fake .
That is not what I would call clutter. Golf would be less attractive without the likes Fowler.  His use of earthworks is very cool...I wish modern archies had the guile to get on board.  Other than the obvious mess of flowers, hedges, gargbage cans, signs etc, the biggest clutter which ironically are sacred cows are

multiple tees
trees as green walls
cart paths

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean,

I read that and thought pretty much the same. One of my few criticisms of some of the great new courses about is the lack of micro movement and the insidiously over smooth look this creates in order to create the perfect mowing surface.
I suspect the poster would hate most Braid or Dr. Mac courses as they are full of such micro movement and bits that are very difficult to machine mow.

Jon

[archie_struthers]

 


I'm not talking rumpled fairways here , but have to respectfully disagree with Sean on big rippling mounds.
Not having seen much of Fowlers' work , I'll have to look further into it to comment on his designs.


If you don't take the cost of maintenance into your design , you are doing s huge disservice to your client and the superintendent who will have to take care of same. Not only do faux mounding in play areas make drainage a problem it contributes to disease pressure . If you can't move the water trouble will surely follow.


I'll take the clean lines any day !

[Sean_A]

Its not as if Walton Heath and Yelverton, to use two examples, cost the earth to maintain.  The shaping exhibited below is great stuff, even if it costs a bit more to maintain. If we leave everything down to a maitenance decision golf courses would not be nearly as adventurous as they can and should be.













Ciao

[archie_struthers]

 


Not sure I would describe the photos from Sean A. as cluttered , quirky might be more apt.


Clutter is having so much going on it overwhelms the senses. Not sure the buildings at St Andrews qualify either , but I've never been there .


When you can't focus on the shot required it's too cluttered for me .

[Kirk Gill]

Complexity can sometimes look like clutter. I sometimes have a hard time discerning the difference. A cluttered visual can sometimes inspire instead of putting you off. For instance, is this visual clutter?





Or what about this?





Both are very......."busy." The first time I saw that first hole, I felt that perhaps Hobbits would live in that environment. But I do love the look of that greensite. The second hole pictured is TOO busy to me, and I'd call that Visual Clutter. Makes me need a dram of Irish Whiskey!

[Kalen Braley]

Bob,
 
Agreed on all points and nice catch, the green side bunker sand is a different color....
 
Jim,
 
I have long ago went on record that TOC gets a pass on a lot of stuff that courses otherwise would not get a pass on because its the home of golf and of the mothers of all quirk.  17 is the most glaring example...if any architect built something like that today, his/her career would likely be over.
 
Jon,
 
The post in the fairway is the 150 stick, a not too uncommon feature on various courses I've played.

[Kalen Braley]

For whatever reason, and I guess its just personal preference, the stuff Sean posted really works for me, even though its clearly man-sculpted.  But then again, I really love quirk....
 
While the 2nd photo in Kirk's photo doesn't work for me...maybe its just cause there is too much and reminds me of...
 
P.S.  By the same token, and I'll qualify, its just from what I've seen on TV... a course like Whistling Straits looks cluttered with the hundreds and hundreds of bunkers scattered everywhere.  Just seems unnecessary.

[Peter Pallotta]

I think I have a decent mind (though it is getting creakier every day), but even more so than with visual" clutter I suffer a bit when there is "psychic" clutter -- in cafes and on television, meaningless chatter and/or overblown rhetoric; on golf courses, the many signs and signifiers and directional aids and clever choices that shout out, much too loudly and insistently for my tastes, "This is a golf course!" and/or "An Architect Made this -- isn't it great!".  Then I can get grumpy, and I want to say in reply: "Do you genuinely want to serve golfers and the game? Then get the hell out of the way!"

That's why I think a flowing, elegant routing is so important. Almost nothing for me adds as much to the "psychic" clutter as a convoluted routing that has me doubling back from a green to the next tee, or wandering off at some strange angle and over bridges in search of the next one. With each awkward routing sequence, I can hear/feel the architect "thinking" -- "Oh, this hole over here is great, and though the walk is a pain once I get them to that elevated tee they'll forget all about it, and then I can get them over there by just going over couple of bridges -- we need a Par 3 now".  And frankly, I don't want to hear the architect thinking; I prefer my own thoughts, and even of those I often get tired.
Peter

[Paul Gray]

Not sure I would describe the photos from Sean A. as cluttered , quirky might be more apt.


Clutter is having so much going on it overwhelms the senses. Not sure the buildings at St Andrews qualify either , but I've never been there .


When you can't focus on the shot required it's too cluttered for me .

Quirky?

That's golf! That's akin to calling TOC quirky, which sounds worryingly like 'quaint old fashioned golf' rather than 'seminal works.'

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