[Sean_A]

I do think it is valuable to have a lot of tees near the house, but I am not sure the 16th tee would be a high priority.  I think back about Mimosa Hills with the house in the centre of play one is never very far from the house...making it easy for a lot of boozers loops.  Of course, this raises the question of what, aesthetically, to do with the parking lot and drive.  This is Mimosa's tradeoff for these unsightly aspects of a centre property house are not disguised well. 


I wonder if the time will come when courses will charge to play boozers loops?  Is there a market for playing 3, 4, 6, 13 or 14 holes?  Thinking of private clubs I would think more boozers loops a very positive thing as I never quite got the idea of a two 9 hole loops.


Ciao

[James Bennett]

I said earlier that 400 metres to 1200 metres seemed pretty good - I knew Lost Farm broke the rules.
David's point about 'finishing early' is accurate - I recall finishing at 15 on inclement days at my old club.

I do know that Heritage Henley (Melbourne) would be closer to 2000 metres back to the clubhouse, despite short walks to 17 and 18 tees.  It is a massive finish for a walker.

James B

[Josh Stevens]

Is the most common match play result 4 and 3?

Bogey

Apparently.  I'm not a statistician, but that was the justification put forward at the time for the change to RM in 98.  So in that sense, the distance to the 16th green was extremely relevant, at least from a logistics view point, even if it meant compromising the course.

The trouble was that they left that stupid routing in place for about 13 years, until it was thankfully put back to the original for the recent world cup.   I grew up understanding where all the great holes came in the match,  3rd, 6th, 10th etc etc and I was thrown off piste for years

TV rules.

[archie_struthers]

 




No comprende

[Mark Pearce]

It should be no more than two holes away...unless there's a 19th hole for settling wagers and tiebreakers, in which case being a third hole away is acceptable.

Isn't it traditional for the 16th tee to be three holes from the clubhouse?

[Jerry Kluger]

I would say it depends upon the climate and the surroundings - if it isn't too hot and you're not sweating much then you must have a bathroom near the 16th tee otherwise, it becomes an issue of how fast you can get to the clubhouse.

[David_Elvins]

David,
 
Can you please provide more context as to the intent of the original question.  I must admit, you've got my gears grinding on where you're heading with this one.

Kalen,


Have been spending the past three years trying to come up with a topic that hadn't been done to death and this was the best I could come up with.  That is the context!


As mentioned before, I find the Lost Farm routing very curious.  By all reports Bill Coore put a lot of effort into a routing that would traverse some of the "least interesting" land so as to provide a balanced journey for the golfer.  Given the care put in to the routing it seemed strange that you would return to the clubhouse after 15 holes and then head out for the loop of the last three. 


I don't think it works from a psychological point of view. 


I always feel that the 16th tee is a bit of a psychological marker.   The finish is in sight, I can start to taste the post round beer,  if I need to concentrate then it is an effort.  A few recent courses that I have played you can see the clubhouse in the distance, a thousand + yards away from the 16th tee. Sometimes it feels too far away.  But from a golfing journey point of view, I love feeling that I am returning to the clubhouse over the last few holes.  A lot of routings use up a lot of ground on these holes too, and it's amazing how often the last few holes cover a lot of ground, perhaps with less tacking and intricacy in the routing that happens in the earlier holes. 


I think i agree with Sean too.  Cape Wickham has a 13-5 split.  Merion too.  Kingston Heath 6-12.  Perhaps better than two nines.  Returning to the clubhouse any laterthan the 13th I don't think works anywhere near as well.


Anyway, just thoughts.  Interested to hear others.

[BHoover]

It should be no more than two holes away...unless there's a 19th hole for settling wagers and tiebreakers, in which case being a third hole away is acceptable.

Isn't it traditional for the 16th tee to be three holes from the clubhouse?

Not if you're counting only 17 and 18.

[David_Elvins]

Not if you're counting only 17 and 18.

I am hoping the next 4 pages of this thread  are not a Mucci style debate as to how many holes are between the 16th tee and the clubhouse.

[BHoover]

Not if you're counting only 17 and 18.

I am hoping the next 4 pages of this thread  are not a Mucci style debate as to how many holes are between the 16th tee and the clubhouse.

Fine, there should be three holes between the 16th tee and the clubhouse, plus a tiebreaker hole if you're so inclined.

Thanks for the correction, David.

[cary lichtenstein]

Simple answer, all course should end with the last 3 holes, a par 3, 4 and 5.

[Mark Pearce]

It should be no more than two holes away...unless there's a 19th hole for settling wagers and tiebreakers, in which case being a third hole away is acceptable.

Isn't it traditional for the 16th tee to be three holes from the clubhouse?

Not if you're counting only 17 and 18.

16 must be an awful hole if you've decided to skip it entirely.

[Kalen Braley]

Thanks for the clarification David E.  For awhile there, I thought you wuz just funnin' us! 
 

[Kalen Braley]

David,
 
As for the clarification.  The vast majority of the time, when I hit the 16 tee, its one of relief in the sense of "thank gawd the round is almost over and I can put myself and my playing partners out of their misery from watching me hack the ball all over the yard"
 
But every now and then, when I'm in grooving it just right, the nerves get-a-jangled when I hit the 16th tee cause it means if I can just hold it together a bit while longer, I have a chance to post a good score, (by my standards).
 
However, in either situation, the proximity of the clubhouse doesn't really factor in for me...but that's just me.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kalen,
 
Unless the weather is horrendous, I rarely give thought to how far I am from the clubhouse when I stand on the 16th tee.................. anywhere.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,
 
Unless the weather is horrendous, I rarely give thought to how far I am from the clubhouse when I stand on the 16th tee.................. anywhere.

Well of course Pat, you're the Mary Poppins of golfers, practically perfect in every way!!   
 
Us mere mortals, speaking only for myself here, I'm usually just trying to par 2 of the last 3 holes so I can break 90....
 
The only exception to this is when i'm playing my long life buddy, doesn't matter what the score is, if i'm still in striking range to catch him, I'm still bearing down to beat him!!

[Matthew Petersen]

I've not played Cypress Point, but the course that comes to mind where 16 tee is close to the clubhouse is Palmetto in Aiken, SC. It's a wonderful course, but the last 3 holes actually feel like a bit of an afterthought. 15 brings you back to the clubhouse, next to the first tee and seems to culminate the journey you've been on. 16 itself is a bit of a forgettable hole; 17 and 18 are fine, I suppose, not great by any means.


At Cypress, I imagine the feeling is quite different. First, you don;'t feel like your journey is done walking of #15, both geographically but also given the two holes you know are coming.


I don't think there's any prescriptive reason to want 16 tee in any one place or another, ultimately. The examples above show how it can work great or not great, but the real issue is that it depends on the site and the holes and the rest of the property.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kalen,
 
Unless the weather is horrendous, I rarely give thought to how far I am from the clubhouse when I stand on the 16th tee.................. anywhere.

Well of course Pat, you're the Mary Poppins of golfers, practically perfect in every way!!   
 
Us mere mortals, speaking only for myself here, I'm usually just trying to par 2 of the last 3 holes so I can break 90....
 
Kalen, this may come as news to you, but, I don't consider that the round is over when I walk off the 15th green.
 
I'm still trying to shoot the lowest score I can on # 16, 17 and 18.

The only exception to this is when i'm playing my long life buddy, doesn't matter what the score is, if i'm still in striking range to catch him, I'm still bearing down to beat him!!
 
Philosphically, I think every golfer wants to "finish" strong.
Whether that means parring the last 3 holes, being under par for the last 3 holes or being even bogey on the last 3 holes.
 
Leaving the course with the satisfaction of playing well on the last three holes creates an enthusiasm with regard to returning to playing again.
 
And, I'll bet it makes your wife, kids and dog happier when you get home.

[jeffwarne]

I've not played Cypress Point, but the course that comes to mind where 16 tee is close to the clubhouse is Palmetto in Aiken, SC. It's a wonderful course, but the last 3 holes actually feel like a bit of an afterthought. 15 brings you back to the clubhouse, next to the first tee and seems to culminate the journey you've been on. 16 itself is a bit of a forgettable hole; 17 and 18 are fine, I suppose, not great by any means.

I forgot about Palmetto-only been a member and playing there 35 years!
I find 16 to be a great par 3, especially in the context of the variety of the 4 par 3's. a long hole with a slightly elevated  shallow green over a dip about 20 yards short held by either  a run up into the downside of the dip or a high soft long shot with death over the green. a ball that lands just short dies and one landing on the green usually goes over.
Best play is something running well before the upslope of the green.
I always found stopping for a quick snack/beer at 16 refreshing-an interesting quirk in an unusual out and back routing

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,
 
Unless the weather is horrendous, I rarely give thought to how far I am from the clubhouse when I stand on the 16th tee.................. anywhere.

Well of course Pat, you're the Mary Poppins of golfers, practically perfect in every way!!   
 
Us mere mortals, speaking only for myself here, I'm usually just trying to par 2 of the last 3 holes so I can break 90....
 
Kalen, this may come as news to you, but, I don't consider that the round is over when I walk off the 15th green.
 
I'm still trying to shoot the lowest score I can on # 16, 17 and 18.

The only exception to this is when i'm playing my long life buddy, doesn't matter what the score is, if i'm still in striking range to catch him, I'm still bearing down to beat him!!
 
Philosphically, I think every golfer wants to "finish" strong.
Whether that means parring the last 3 holes, being under par for the last 3 holes or being even bogey on the last 3 holes.
 
Leaving the course with the satisfaction of playing well on the last three holes creates an enthusiasm with regard to returning to playing again.
 
And, I'll bet it makes your wife, kids and dog happier when you get home.

Pat,
 
For High Cappers, the round is often "over" by the 16th tee.  At that point, its only a matter of will the final number be in the low 90s or mid 90s.
 
As for finishing well, it only matters when i'm playing that well that day, which is few and far in between.  So the family, and the dog are well and safe.  Besides a case can be made that perhaps i'm not that good of a player because I don't spend a lot of time at the course....which in some ways I wear as a badge of honor.
 
When the kids are young and still in the nest, tough to justify spending a ton of time away from home at the golf course...

[Rich Goodale]

To slightly hijack your thread, David, both of my clubs have a 16th GREEN within 200 yards of the clubhouse, and it is a very practical feature for match or casual play.

[Bill_McBride]

To slightly hijack your thread, David, both of my clubs have a 16th GREEN within 200 yards of the clubhouse, and it is a very practical feature for match or casual play.

The 16th tee at Dornoch is 200 yards from the clubhouse?  I thought it was 500 yards to the green!

[MClutterbuck]

For me placement of 16 tee is irrelevant for a friendly match play, since I would normally play out all 18 anyway. It seems it would be important for spectating. However, Volume 2 of the Confidential Guide singles out 4 courses as Best Spectator Courses and it seems argues against 16 tee placement being important.


TPC Scottsdale (16 tee far away)
TPC Sawgrass (16 tee next to CH)
ANGC (16 tee far away)
Nordelta (16 tee next to CH).


This last course, my home course, is in fact a fantastic spectator course, with 10 tee, all of 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 tee and all of 18 visible from the CH terrace. 16 tee in particular is right next to the terrace.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,
 
For High Cappers, the round is often "over" by the 16th tee.  At that point, its only a matter of will the final number be in the low 90s or mid 90s.

"Finishing" a round is often another formidable challenge for the golfer.   Those who quit, physically or mentally, after # 15, will rarely be prepared to "finish" the golf course when it counts.

I can't remember a match, whether I won or lost, where I didn't ask my fellow competitor and if they wanted to finish the round.

I'm on the golf course to enjoy myself, to isolate myself from everything else in my life and the world around me.   WHY would I want to cut my time on the course short ?  ?  ?

As for finishing well, it only matters when i'm playing that well that day, which is few and far in between. 


Finishing well matters EVERY round.
Golf courses have 18 holes and I want to play all 18.

Don't you post your scores ?

So the family, and the dog are well and safe. 


I know, render unto Caesar.
I have a family, a dog and work, but, I'm on the golf course to play 18 holes, not 12 or 15


Besides a case can be made that perhaps i'm not that good of a player because I don't spend a lot of time at the course....which in some ways I wear as a badge of honor.


"Golf" is a game to be enjoyed, irrespective of whether or not you're a "good player".  When I couldn't hit the ball 200 yards I loved the game as much or more than when I was playing at a reasonably high level

It's about your heart, not your handicap.

When the kids are young and still in the nest, tough to justify spending a ton of time away from home at the golf course...


I have a young child and a grandchild, so I understand the commitment to family, but that's not going to make me cut my rounds short.

If golf was played in no more than 3 hours it would help to reduce the conflict with family and work.

[Bill_Yates]

If we are using The Old Course as an example, the 16th tee should be 1,188 yards from the clubhouse.

Perhaps a better architecture question to ask is "How far should the 16th tee be from the 15th green?

Again, using The Old Course as an example, the answer is 31 yards.

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