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Patrick_Mucci

of Nebraska was the best land for golf in the U.S.
 
In thinking about terrain, Pasatiempo, Sand Hills, ANGC, CPC, Seminole, NGLA, Shinnecock, Fishers Island, LACC and others have unique terrain.  Other courses, such as GCGC, Pine Tree, Hidden Creek and others have relatively flat terrain.
 
Yet, both types of terrain have produced sensational golf courses.
 
Ignoring environmental constraints and radical land, such as Tehama, is it difficult or next to impossible to design a bad golf course on almost any land form ?
 
I'm not referencing "style", but routing and the quality of the individual holes ?
 
Can you provide an example of "bad design" on a property without constraints ?
 
 

Brian Hilko

  • Karma: +0/-0
I feel erin hills routing is really poor for a piece of land without constraints. The green to tee walks are really awful. The golf course to me as always felt like a letdown for how good the land is. Plus quite a few holes feel repetitive with trying to clear some sort of hill.
Down with the brown

Peter Pallotta

Patrick - you're asking a question I've thought about and raised here before, but in a different way, i.e.:

With a century-worth of great courses to study, with libraries full of seminal texts on golf course design and construction, with countless wonderful golf holes to use as models and for inspiration, with landscape architecture schools abounding, with opportunities still available to intern with seasoned professionals and learn from them, and with the freedom, within reason, to take as much time as one likes and needs on site and on the drawing board to tinker and revise a routing/design, I have no idea why any architect could and should not produce a truly great course every time out.

I am loath to answer that question by falling back on my immediate assumption, i.e. they don't because they don't want to, and/or because they simply don't have the talent to do so.  I don't -- and almost can't -- believe that; so I remain stumped.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 31, 2015, 12:12:56 PM by PPallotta »

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
In the US, I would cite Bay Harbor (Art Hills) as a mediocre golf course on an amazing piece of land that borders Lake Michigan. They had a ton of issues, but the end product is just average.


In Ireland, I would cite the European Club that sits on a truly spectacular piece of coastal property but produced a gimmicky golf course that I will only ever play once. Poor choice of grass, poorly constructed greens, terrible bunkering...etc.


Back in the US, I would also cite Half Moon Bay where (sorry, Art) Arthur Hills (yet again) had an incredible piece of property on the Pacific that he turned into an average "pseudo-links" experience.


RTJ, Jr. had a primo property at his disposal for Bodega Bay in NoCal and he turned that into an after-thought of a resort course.


There are ceratinly other courses in the Nebraska area that I do not know that have been designed by: Tom Lehman, Graham Marsh, etc. It would be interesting to hear what people have to say about that. Everyone loves Doak's course at Dismal River. But, what about Jack's?


Other incredible pieces of property that come to mind where - IMO - the architect left something to be desired:


1. Nantucket Golf Club - could have been an incredible links course. Rees made a resort course.
2. The Irish Course at Whistling Straits
3. Doonbeg


Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
I feel erin hills routing is really poor for a piece of land without constraints. The green to tee walks are really awful. The golf course to me as always felt like a letdown for how good the land is. Plus quite a few holes feel repetitive with trying to clear some sort of hill.

To each his own. I really liked Erin Hills.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

John Cowden

  • Karma: +0/-0
"There are ceratinly other courses in the Nebraska area that I do not know that have been designed by: Tom Lehman, Graham Marsh, etc. It would be interesting to hear what people have to say about that. Everyone loves Doak's course at Dismal River. But, what about Jack's?"[/size]




I really enjoyed Graham Marsh's course at Prairie Dunes, more than Tom Lehman's.  As for Dismal White, Jack's course, it is phenomenal.   I gather it also is growing on people as more and more players are exposed to it.    Granted, a couple early blind shots take some getting used to, but the strategy inherent in the overall design, from tee shots to green contours, are first rate.   It's also a blast to play! 
[/color]

Patrick_Mucci

Ian,
 
You seem to be citing courses with "issues", environmental or permitting.
 
I played Bodega many years ago, what about it causes you to classify it as "an after thought of a resort course."
 
Didn't RTJ Jr have permitting issues at Bodega ?
 
 

Alan Ritchie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Whilst the land is not fully ' without constraint' I've often thought of my club in sydney, st michaels and the adjesant courses along the coast fall into this category. situated right next door to NSW but probably rates as a 4/5 on the DS with a likely 8 over the hill. the course has suffered from some very poor design ideas that they are now trying to rectify but I just wonder what an skilled architect would have/ could do to the course.


the views are stunning and there would be potential for some great cliff edge style holes. The land does become relatively flat inland so certainly not perfect but I think a great area has been squandered a little. Available money is obviously important as these clubs wil all have relatively limited funds. I heard that Norman/ packer had previously tried to buy the land but it fell through.

Patrick_Mucci

Spanish Bay had some environmental and permitting issues, but, I always thought that they sited the hotel and parking lot on land ideal for golf and that the hotel and parking lot should have been as far East as possible.
 
But, the development and siting of condos/houses/hotel probably took precedence.
 
A golden opportunity lost.
 
The "Snead" course at the Greenbriar would be another.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
I feel erin hills routing is really poor for a piece of land without constraints. The green to tee walks are really awful. The golf course to me as always felt like a letdown for how good the land is. Plus quite a few holes feel repetitive with trying to clear some sort of hill.

To each his own. I really liked Erin Hills.


+1


No different than playing a classic with 50-100 yard walkbacks on every hole to a back tee
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pat,


What about Crystal Springs in Nw Jersey? I have no idea if they had constraints, but it seems to me they had the potential to build a pretty spectacular mountain course. Instead, it's a course that many refuse to play twice... I personally hate the high mounding along each hole with the cart path outside the mounding, and you have to keep the cats on the path. I ended up bringing four clubs, and someone had to go back and get the cart... Hated the place.

Mike_Trenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Patrick:


Please provide a list of courses built without constraints to help us with this exercise.
Proud member of a Doak 3.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Remedy Oak profiled by Sean pretty much wasted a good piece of land, likewise the back 9 at Hillside.
Cave Nil Vino

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
In the US, I would cite Bay Harbor (Art Hills) as a mediocre golf course on an amazing piece of land that borders Lake Michigan. They had a ton of issues, but the end product is just average.


In Ireland, I would cite the European Club that sits on a truly spectacular piece of coastal property but produced a gimmicky golf course that I will only ever play once. Poor choice of grass, poorly constructed greens, terrible bunkering...etc.


Back in the US, I would also cite Half Moon Bay where (sorry, Art) Arthur Hills (yet again) had an incredible piece of property on the Pacific that he turned into an average "pseudo-links" experience.


RTJ, Jr. had a primo property at his disposal for Bodega Bay in NoCal and he turned that into an after-thought of a resort course.


There are ceratinly other courses in the Nebraska area that I do not know that have been designed by: Tom Lehman, Graham Marsh, etc. It would be interesting to hear what people have to say about that. Everyone loves Doak's course at Dismal River. But, what about Jack's?


Other incredible pieces of property that come to mind where - IMO - the architect left something to be desired:


1. Nantucket Golf Club - could have been an incredible links course. Rees made a resort course.
2. The Irish Course at Whistling Straits
3. Doonbeg


Ian,


I spent a fair amount of time on the Doonbeg property before anything was done. It really wasn't that great when you looked at the whole thing.
Tim Weiman

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sebonac?  With a 100 years of GCA head start and it's still only the third best course in its zip code.  Just sayin'.


Ocean Course?  Same reason. Why aren't either of these top 10, or 20?  Eye of the beholder and all, aside.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Patrick:


I flew over Sand Hills and Dismal River today at 35,000 feet, on my way to LA (and on to Australia tonight).  That is land without constraints -- hundreds of square miles of undulating sandy ground.  There's nowhere else like it, in my estimation.  I just wish a lot more people lived there, so it would make sense to build more courses there.


But, you can design a bad golf course anywhere, if you've got the wrong priorities.  Luckily, when good pieces of land come along, developers tend not to hire bad architects.

Lyndell Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
I feel erin hills routing is really poor for a piece of land without constraints. The green to tee walks are really awful. The golf course to me as always felt like a letdown for how good the land is. Plus quite a few holes feel repetitive with trying to clear some sort of hill.
To each his own. I really liked Erin Hills.+1


+1


No different than playing a classic with 50-100 yard walkbacks on every hole to a back tee

John Cowden

  • Karma: +0/-0

Tom,


I hope you were able to pick out the Chop Hills.  Seventy miles or so removed from the Sand Hills, formally, but such a wonderful landscape.  It would be wonderful if there were a second course in there for you.




Peter Pallotta

It's 1992. Quentin Tarantino is an almost complete unknown. He's just made "Reservoir Dogs". It's going to have its premiere at Sundance. But some of the very important people there are unhappy at the film's stylized violence and crude language. Powerful Harvey Weinstein is telling Tarantino that he must edit the film to remove the (particularly violent) sequence involving the cop being held hostage. Weinstein -- who before and since has made directors and wrecked them, promoted films and buried them -- argues, bullies, cajoles, uses reason, and uses threats; he can probably end the young filmmakers career right then and there.  Tarantino stands firm, and won't budge. The scene stays in. The film is a ground-breaker, a revolution. Tarantino goes on to make "Pulp Fiction" etc -- and Weinstein goes on to call his company Miramax "the house that Quentin built".  Years later, QT says he has no sympathy for young directors who complain that their film's "are not their own" and that producers/distributors have forced changes on them. You have to fight, QT says, for what you believe in, and if you don't you deserve what you get.

It's 1976. An unknown bit-part actor with a funny name and $200 left in his bank account has written a terrific script. The Hollywood studios love it -- they offer him $100,000 for it. No, says the broke and out-of-work actor, not unless I get to star in the lead role as well. The studio heads roll their eyes. They offer him $250,000 for the script -- and tell him that they are going to turn it into a fantastic picture, budgeted at $10-$20 million and starring the likes of (then-hot) Ryan O'Neal. The young actor, Sylvester Stallone, stands firm and again says "no" - he won't sell the script unless he gets to star in the picture. Broke though he is, he risks throwing away a quarter of a million dollars and perhaps his one and only chance at a successful Hollywood career. The studios throw up their hands -- fine, you get your way, but the film now has a budget of a mere $1.1 million; shoot it in 25 days and good luck to you (and good riddance!). So they start shooting "Rocky", and even then Stallone has to fight the director and beg him to film a scene the director thinks unnecessary, i.e. the scene where Rocky lies in bed with Adrian the night before the fight of his life and admits that deep down he doesn't think he can beat Apollo Creed. The director reluctantly agrees to film the scene, but gives him only one take to do it in -- that's all the time (and film stock) he'll allow. So Stallone does the scene he wrote, and fought for, and as Rocky Balboa he says (what I think is the key reason the movie works): "It don't matter if I lose. It don't matter if he opens my head. The only thing I wanna do is go the distance. Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed. And if go them 15 rounds, and that bell rings and I'm still standing, I'm gonna know -- for the first time in my life -- that I weren't just another bum from the neighbourhood".  And of course, "Rocky" comes out and is a huge hit.

My point? There are no constraints! No 'client', no 'land', no 'budget'. The only constraints are the ones creative people put on themselves, and choose to put on themselves out of fear or insecurity or so-called "practical good sense".

Here endeth the lesson.

Peter


     
     
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 12:36:52 AM by PPallotta »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Peter:


That's a fantastic post you made.  Thanks for the reminder.


The unfortunate part of golf course architecture is that a lot of projects are not golf courses at all.  They are housing developments, with golf courses as fronts.  Their architects are never free from constraint; they have to put the course on the land the developer tells them to.


Tarantino the golf architect would simply decline such projects entirely.  And so do I.  There are many who don't, because it's their only work.  It's just too bad their only work isn't designing golf courses.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Why do we need to build the next great course? This subject harks back to a conversation I had with an archie about Pennard.  He lamented that a guy like Colt would have built something very special.  I still argue that even if it isn't great, Pennard is really special and something Colt couldn't or wouldn't produce.  I would rather have the one off design rather than another in the cog of greatness because much of the time something has to be sacrificed for greatness to be conferred upon a course...there can be a bit of a watering down process to appease the masses.  Sure, we get courses like Tobacco Road, Carne and Cashen for this approach, but where is the great harm in that? At least these courses have an identity all their own and for an archie that must be something quite special.


Ciao
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 08:17:16 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Patrick_Mucci


Patrick:

Please provide a list of courses built without constraints to help us with this exercise.



Start with Sand Hills


Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
I know its been mentioned before on other threads...
 
But Sand Pines in Oregon has got to be top 10.  I don't know if it had permitting issues or not, but that's gotta be an all-time missed opportunity....
 
P.S.  Peter, one of the best posts of all time!!!  And that's damn right!!!

Andrew Bernstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Spanish Bay had some environmental and permitting issues, but, I always thought that they sited the hotel and parking lot on land ideal for golf and that the hotel and parking lot should have been as far East as possible.
 
But, the development and siting of condos/houses/hotel probably took precedence.
 
A golden opportunity lost.
 
The "Snead" course at the Greenbriar would be another.


I'm not sure I would quite qualify the Greenbrier's "The Snead" as a golden opportunity. A portion of the land has some movement, but the majority was built on an old airport landing strip. It was dead flat.

Patrick_Mucci

I know its been mentioned before on other threads...
 
But Sand Pines in Oregon has got to be top 10.  I don't know if it had permitting issues or not, but that's gotta be an all-time missed opportunity....
 
Kalen,
 
You know that they had constraints with the oblique dunes and other issues.
 
While the course could have been better, I found it enjoyable to play.

 
P.S.  Peter, one of the best posts of all time!!!  And that's damn right!!!

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