[Patrick_Mucci]

Niall,
 
If you were on othe 6th green at NGLA, on the far right, with the hole cut 5 yards from the right edge and the hole was cut 5 yards from the left edge, leaving you about a 52 yard putt, would you feel the same way, understanding that you have an uphill putt that must traverse the volcano like contour in the middle of the green ?
 
Why shouldn't a tee shot from roughly 139 yards, that's 52 yards off line, face a similar fate ?
 
One's vertical in terms of being short of the hole and the other is horizontal, or directionally deprived.
 
Why should golfers who miss their intended target by a wide margin not face a difficult recovery.
 
Why should there be a sense of entitlement in terms of getting down in two ?
 
With regard to that putt from the far, lower right to the far upper left, worse than coming up short is going long as that green feeds balls into the adjacent bunkers.
 
Hence, like # 1, golfers hitting the green can walk off the green with a triple or worse.
 
I don't understand those who want to mute the challenge because their poor thinking and/or poor execution results in a high score.

[V. Kmetz]

 
What do you think caused MacKenzie to declare it his favorite par 4 ?

And that, my good moron, is right at the heart of this question and my continual point about level-fours - will slopes and classic features like this "do" any more, or will they be moronically driven out of the game in new design, deferring to some inchoate personal sense of fairness that's driven by this (to me) inured concept of a hole par.


Even in this twinkling remark, MacKenzie gets what I have come to get...EVERY hole is a solution of 4. If each hole (from 60 - 660)had that on the card (or no par at all) would there be as ardent a call for "fairness" here.? If the hole just said 150 yds and nothing else, the three or four jack on an audacious green is now just a feature of the hole, like fairway bunkers or other hazards...good luck to you... who said you're entitled to two putt.


I know even if you don't join with me in my full opinion, we have the same foundation in terms of "play,"...I so agree that when you put yourself 52 yards from a 135 yard target, you have hit a poor shot and/or received a poor result...play on and don't grumble about green features being unfair... in the archery/target aspect of the game, you have failed...be thankful that the hole makes a four available...hit a shot or two like that on a 500 yard hole and you might make 7 or 8...


Of course green speeds and maintenance are legitimate parts of the debate (this was spoken of when the resto/reno/vation was done to an audacious green of another character - the 12th at GCityM)...


but more on that another time...


dissolve hole pars out of the game (or list them all as 4s) and architecture will gets its next liberation.


cheers


vk

[Patrick_Mucci]

V Kmetz,


I think MacKenzie reinforces your premise just two holes earlier where he criss crosses the fairway DZ with large, deep trenches, leaving elements of luck to determine your lie and your ability to hit an accurate approach shot into an angled green protected by a fronting bunker.

[V. Kmetz]

Hi again...


And Pat, I'll go Mackenzie one better with regards to the comment (not the feature you described)...WFE #13...141 yards...called by the players, "best Par 5" on the course and its true. when the pin is in front its SO true...you have got to hit a 30 footer about 8 inches in weight and maybe 12-15 feet above the hole...and then you freeze, and hope... i've seen 6s halve the hole when 2/4 players were on the green.


People from afar howl...meanwhile on the course, the members and caddies chuckle and say, "What a place, isn't this great?!"


This IS the fun folks...features like the one Pat has hi-lighted are at the beguiling, vexing, sporty and amusing essence of the game - figuring out the impossible or improbable, somehow...someway. And fair? It's as fair as a May morning...all fellow medal competitors have to do it and so does each match opponent...unless you've closed him out, or he you.


cheers


vk

[Niall C]

Patrick


The first thing I have to say is that I miss an awful lot of greens in regulation. I appreciate therefore that there are consequences for not knocking it stiff with your approach. I'm fine with that.


Likewise I appreciate that you can be on the wrong part of the green and therefore there should be a degree of penalty. So far I don't think we are in disagreement.


Where I think we might disagree is the nature of the penalty in that I personally love delicate chips or bunker shots that require a degree of finesse. Or even putts that require fine judgement because of either the borrow or break or speed or whatever, but having to take a three quarter swipe to get the ball up towards the hole just seems to me unsatisfactory and about as much fun as hacking out of deep rough.


Niall

[Patrick_Mucci]

Niall,


As much as I think you'll love Pasatiempo, the phrase "delicate little chips" doesn't come to mind.


It's a big, bold golf course.


Errant shots are faced with very challenging recoveries.


#'s 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, 15, 16, 17 & 18 are just some of the greens where errant shots are presented with very challenging recoveries.


Let us know your thoughts after your round.


Have fun  [size=78%]and say "hello" to the staff for me[/size]

[RSantangelo]

Hi again...


And Pat, I'll go Mackenzie one better with regards to the comment (not the feature you described)...WFE #13...141 yards...called by the players, "best Par 5" on the course and its true. when the pin is in front its SO true...you have got to hit a 30 footer about 8 inches in weight and maybe 12-15 feet above the hole...and then you freeze, and hope... i've seen 6s halve the hole when 2/4 players were on the green.


People from afar howl...meanwhile on the course, the members and caddies chuckle and say, "What a place, isn't this great?!"


This IS the fun folks...features like the one Pat has hi-lighted are at the beguiling, vexing, sporty and amusing essence of the game - figuring out the impossible or improbable, somehow...someway. And fair? It's as fair as a May morning...all fellow medal competitors have to do it and so does each match opponent...unless you've closed him out, or he you.


cheers


vk

Well said!  I think we would enjoy a game together.

I am sure many (most?) on this site have read the spirit of St. Andrews...I had not until I found it on this site....of course, it's just one man's perspective but for me personally it rang so true that I reread the book a month later and bought copies to give away to friends and clients...

[MCirba]

Patrick,

Good thread and welll done.  Thanks.

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