[BCowan]

John,

Solid post.  Have u played franklin post prichard?  I agree on 17.  5 and 6 are really good holes.  The 5th Crenshaw spoke highly of.  Unfortunately it's kept soft and the greens are too fast for the bold greens.  2, 9, 13, 14, and 18 are world class imo. 

[Sven Nilsen]

Angels Crossing - fun template holes,  good conditioning when I played after opening   

About time this course was given some love on this thread.

[John Moore]

John,

Solid post.  Have u played franklin post prichard?  I agree on 17.  5 and 6 are really good holes.  The 5th Crenshaw spoke highly of.  Unfortunately it's kept soft and the greens are too fast for the bold greens.  2, 9, 13, 14, and 18 are world class imo. 

Ben,
Yes, I've played Franklin since the renovation. Those 5 are all excellent holes, I especially like 13.

Sven,

I played AC with Jim Thompson (one of the founders) and Joe Hancock. I had a great time and remember the course fondly but know it's been through a lot of transition since then. Have you played it recently?

[Sven Nilsen]

John:


Last time I played it was probably around 2010.  Haven't seen it recently.


Sven

[Mike Schott]

I had not heard of Angels Crossing until this thread. As it was designed by one of the Matthews family I did not have high hopes but the pictures look promising.


Speaking of the Matthews family, as an MSU grad I am partial to the Forest Akers West course. Designed by W. Bruce Matthews the old man of the family, it's a fine course that needs some tree trimming but still has generous fairways on most holes. The recent routing change screws with the flow however. All the par 3's are now from the 7th to 12th holes.

[Mark Johnson]

hard to understand how CC of Jackson(Marsh/Woods) is not on the list.  Has it just not gotten that much GCA play?  Haven't played all the michigan courses out there, but clearly better than every course I've played below 12 on the composite list.

What is the composite list?  The first post is the list. I've heard cc of Jackson is a gem.  How many courses in the top 25 have u played?  I love how people sound off but are vague in their response. One in our group has played it 12 years ago in high school and had nice things to say.

I meant the first list as the composite.


Jackson was built by arthur hamm, a field supervisor for Donald Ross in the 20s and it has a real Ross feel.   Great use of bunkering and back to front greens.   Very narrow fairways (18 to 25 yards) with many holes where you cant hit driver off tee and need to work the ball.  A bit shortish (6750 from the back tees), it still protects par very well.    IMO, the strength of the course is the par 3,  from 150 to 240, great 1 shotters to well protected greens.  My favorite hole is the 150 yard par 3 sixth, which Dave Hill once called the best par 3 he's ever played.


In terms of the list,   I think Oakland Hills,  Greywalls, Crystal Downs, Forest Dunes and Arcardia are the only ones I have played which I would call clearly better


I would put it on similar terms with CCD, Battle Creek, Gross Ille and Oakland hills north and call it much better than U of M, Mukesgon, Radrick Farms, Barton Hills, Bloomfield hills , and indianwood

[Aaron McMaster]

hard to understand how CC of Jackson(Marsh/Woods) is not on the list.  Has it just not gotten that much GCA play?  Haven't played all the michigan courses out there, but clearly better than every course I've played below 12 on the composite list.

What is the composite list?  The first post is the list. I've heard cc of Jackson is a gem.  How many courses in the top 25 have u played?  I love how people sound off but are vague in their response. One in our group has played it 12 years ago in high school and had nice things to say.

I meant the first list as the composite.


Jackson was built by arthur hamm, a field supervisor for Donald Ross in the 20s and it has a real Ross feel.   Great use of bunkering and back to front greens.   Very narrow fairways (18 to 25 yards) with many holes where you cant hit driver off tee and need to work the ball.  A bit shortish (6750 from the back tees), it still protects par very well.    IMO, the strength of the course is the par 3,  from 150 to 240, great 1 shotters to well protected greens.  My favorite hole is the 150 yard par 3 sixth, which Dave Hill once called the best par 3 he's ever played.


In terms of the list,   I think Oakland Hills,  Greywalls, Crystal Downs, Forest Dunes and Arcardia are the only ones I have played which I would call clearly better


I would put it on similar terms with CCD, Battle Creek, Gross Ille and Oakland hills north and call it much better than U of M, Mukesgon, Radrick Farms, Barton Hills, Bloomfield hills , and indianwood

Jackson much better than Indianwood??  Maybe the new but your smoking something if your talking the old. 

[BCowan]

hard to understand how CC of Jackson(Marsh/Woods) is not on the list.  Has it just not gotten that much GCA play?  Haven't played all the michigan courses out there, but clearly better than every course I've played below 12 on the composite list.

What is the composite list?  The first post is the list. I've heard cc of Jackson is a gem.  How many courses in the top 25 have u played?  I love how people sound off but are vague in their response. One in our group has played it 12 years ago in high school and had nice things to say.

I meant the first list as the composite.


Jackson was built by arthur hamm, a field supervisor for Donald Ross in the 20s and it has a real Ross feel.   Great use of bunkering and back to front greens.   Very narrow fairways (18 to 25 yards) with many holes where you cant hit driver off tee and need to work the ball.  A bit shortish (6750 from the back tees), it still protects par very well.    IMO, the strength of the course is the par 3,  from 150 to 240, great 1 shotters to well protected greens.  My favorite hole is the 150 yard par 3 sixth, which Dave Hill once called the best par 3 he's ever played.


In terms of the list,   I think Oakland Hills,  Greywalls, Crystal Downs, Forest Dunes and Arcardia are the only ones I have played which I would call clearly better


I would put it on similar terms with CCD, Battle Creek, Gross Ille and Oakland hills north and call it much better than U of M, Mukesgon, Radrick Farms, Barton Hills, Bloomfield hills , and indianwood

Jackson much better than Indianwood??  Maybe the new but your smoking something if your talking the old.

Indianwood is the most overrated course.  Great land, good routing, and fine furniture scattered all around in a moronic manner.   

[Aaron McMaster]

hard to understand how CC of Jackson(Marsh/Woods) is not on the list.  Has it just not gotten that much GCA play?  Haven't played all the michigan courses out there, but clearly better than every course I've played below 12 on the composite list.

What is the composite list?  The first post is the list. I've heard cc of Jackson is a gem.  How many courses in the top 25 have u played?  I love how people sound off but are vague in their response. One in our group has played it 12 years ago in high school and had nice things to say.

I meant the first list as the composite.


Jackson was built by arthur hamm, a field supervisor for Donald Ross in the 20s and it has a real Ross feel.   Great use of bunkering and back to front greens.   Very narrow fairways (18 to 25 yards) with many holes where you cant hit driver off tee and need to work the ball.  A bit shortish (6750 from the back tees), it still protects par very well.    IMO, the strength of the course is the par 3,  from 150 to 240, great 1 shotters to well protected greens.  My favorite hole is the 150 yard par 3 sixth, which Dave Hill once called the best par 3 he's ever played.


In terms of the list,   I think Oakland Hills,  Greywalls, Crystal Downs, Forest Dunes and Arcardia are the only ones I have played which I would call clearly better


I would put it on similar terms with CCD, Battle Creek, Gross Ille and Oakland hills north and call it much better than U of M, Mukesgon, Radrick Farms, Barton Hills, Bloomfield hills , and indianwood

Jackson much better than Indianwood??  Maybe the new but your smoking something if your talking the old.

Indianwood is the most overrated course.  Great land, good routing, and fine furniture scattered all around in a moronic manner.

  Get a clue!  then come back in the morning.

[BCowan]

hard to understand how CC of Jackson(Marsh/Woods) is not on the list.  Has it just not gotten that much GCA play?  Haven't played all the michigan courses out there, but clearly better than every course I've played below 12 on the composite list.

What is the composite list?  The first post is the list. I've heard cc of Jackson is a gem.  How many courses in the top 25 have u played?  I love how people sound off but are vague in their response. One in our group has played it 12 years ago in high school and had nice things to say.

I meant the first list as the composite.


Jackson was built by arthur hamm, a field supervisor for Donald Ross in the 20s and it has a real Ross feel.   Great use of bunkering and back to front greens.   Very narrow fairways (18 to 25 yards) with many holes where you cant hit driver off tee and need to work the ball.  A bit shortish (6750 from the back tees), it still protects par very well.    IMO, the strength of the course is the par 3,  from 150 to 240, great 1 shotters to well protected greens.  My favorite hole is the 150 yard par 3 sixth, which Dave Hill once called the best par 3 he's ever played.


In terms of the list,   I think Oakland Hills,  Greywalls, Crystal Downs, Forest Dunes and Arcardia are the only ones I have played which I would call clearly better


I would put it on similar terms with CCD, Battle Creek, Gross Ille and Oakland hills north and call it much better than U of M, Mukesgon, Radrick Farms, Barton Hills, Bloomfield hills , and indianwood

Jackson much better than Indianwood??  Maybe the new but your smoking something if your talking the old.

Indianwood is the most overrated course.  Great land, good routing, and fine furniture scattered all around in a moronic manner.

  Get a clue!  then come back in the morning.

Did u fall out of ur carryall too many times? 

[Aaron McMaster]

I'd love to see the arguments supporting Plum Hollow as a, say, top 50 course in Michigan.

Really good set of greens and outstanding par 3's.  Nice variety of holes with different shot requirements from short to long iron approaches.  It has issues for sure but it's definitely a solid track and if they had the money and brain power it could be improved nicely with massive tree removal to expose more of the valleys and ravines that really could mess with your mind if you could see them.


What someone needs to explain to me is why Barton Hills is anything better than average and actually got worse after the renovation.

[Will E]

I'll agree that Plum Hollow could be much better.

How anyone could think Barton Hills is average and not substantially improved since Ron Prichard's work there is baffling to me. I would argue it is one of the most transformed courses I've ever seen, along with LACC North. It is true that some prefer narrow corridors, more trees, shallow bunkers, circular small greens, and modern conditioning. A lot of people like Starbucks too.

Another course for Ben Cowan (Michigan) would be CC of Detroit.

Another brewery would be Greenbush.

[BCowan]

I'll agree that Plum Hollow could be much better.

How anyone could think Barton Hills is average and not substantially improved since Ron Prichard's work there is baffling to me. I would argue it is one of the most transformed courses I've ever seen, along with LACC North. It is true that some prefer narrow corridors, more trees, shallow bunkers, circular small greens, and modern conditioning. A lot of people like Starbucks too.

Another course for Ben Cowan (Michigan) would be CC of Detroit.

Another brewery would be Greenbush.

Will,

Barton went from a 4 to a 5.5.  The top hat green looks like someone took a wheel barrel and dumped dirt on it.  The 12th green is bad too.  He improved the bunkers at barton. The money they spent they should have imoroved. The ponds on 6 and 10 look worse than many munis.  Barton does have potential though, but I don't see it coming to fruition.  Someone said it was in same class as Plainfield, I find that funny if Plainfield is considered 2nd best in Jersey. 

[Will E]

Well Ben, we have must have different criteria for evaluating courses.

Pond appearance isn't high on my list.

I don't see a rival to Barton in the Detroit area other than Oakland Hills.

[BCowan]

Will,

No that was not what I was implying. those 2 ponds weren't in the original design and they detract from the course in a negative way. It's shitty strategic additions.  The one looks like a big puddle in the middle of the fairway. 

Have you played franklin, Grosse ile, and orchard lake?

Barton Is The 3rd Best In Ann Arbor.  Do u live in Michigan?

[Will E]

I do spend a lot of time in Michigan and have played the courses you note multiple times. I am very familiar with these designs.

The pond on 6 at Barton is original, the pond on 10 was added for irrigation.

If you think Barton is #3 in Michigan you'd be right, #3 in Ann Arbor indicates to me that you have a lot to learn.

[BCowan]

I'm pretty sure pond on 6 is not original.  Knowing u have jolly pumpkin as ur 1 brewery told me everything. If washtenaw was renovated barton would be 4th best in Ann arbor. Barton 3 in michigan is funny.  The club now controls all its water, the ponds added on 3 and 12 were much better and logical.  I'll go hole for hole match play barton, radrick, and UM with you. UM has 2 world class holes in the first 6 holes.  That is high praise for I went to OSU.

[Mark Saltzman]

Ok Ben, start the matchplay. Could I see BH as 3rd in Michigan? Man that's tough competition. But I could see it.

[BCowan]

Ok Ben, start the matchplay. Could I see BH as 3rd in Michigan? Man that's tough competition. But I could see it.

Will start this tonight. I gotta work now.  This reminds me of the mike young thread about bunkers. 

[Don Mahaffey]

I'm pretty sure pond on 6 is not original.  Knowing u have jolly pumpkin as ur 1 brewery told me everything. If washtenaw was renovated barton would be 4th best in Ann arbor. Barton 3 in michigan is funny.  The club now controls all its water, the ponds added on 3 and 12 were much better and logical.  I'll go hole for hole match play barton, radrick, and UM with you. UM has 2 world class holes in the first 6 holes.  That is high praise for I went to OSU.

Dude......

[BCowan]

Don,

That was a deep response.  I'm sorry that prob wasn't covered in the confidential guide  .

To paraphrase jkava, we're told what to like....

[Will E]

Knowing Ben went to OSU tells me everything 

[JStewart]

1. OHCC (South)
2. Arcadia Bluffs
3. Forest Dunes
4. Kingsley
5. Univ of Mich
6. OHCC (North)
7. Oakland U (Sharf)
8. Radrick Farms
9. CC of Detroit
10. Cedar River
11. Gailes
12. Bloomfield Hills CC
13. Treetops (Smith)
14. Orchards
15. Boyne (Heather)


Haven't played:  Crystal Downs, Lost Dunes, Orchard Lake, Franklin Hills, Barton Hills, Wuskowhan, True North, Belvedere, Greywalls, Battle Creek, Detroit GC

[Ryan Taylor]

A top 5 or 10 MI brewery list without Kuhnhenn's is like a Top 25 MI GCA list without Crystal Downs. Their DRIPA is world class and they have a bunch of good stouts and porters. The Warren location has an incredible vibe and is very low key but always packed. I'm very disappointed that it wasn't listed within the initial Top 5. Shorts also has to be included. Founders is no longer a MI brewery. They sold a 30% stake to a large multinational in late 2014. Sleepers - Beards Brewery in Petoskey and Griffin Claw in Birmingham

[BCowan]

hard to understand how CC of Jackson(Marsh/Woods) is not on the list.  Has it just not gotten that much GCA play?  Haven't played all the michigan courses out there, but clearly better than every course I've played below 12 on the composite list.

Mark,

Thanks for posting CCJ. This was one of the big reasons why I did this thread.  To expose gems that have been overlooked by the PR machine.  I've heard good things by a few other MI GCAers about Jackson and I plan on visiting before the first snow. 

   I'm going to try and steer this thread away from the hipster beer notchers.  If I can't pronounce the breweries name, I prob wouldn't like it

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