[Adam Clayman]

Course alterations are all the rage.

Most, that Ive seen, take away from the sites uniqueness.

Can you create one? Or, is creating a sense of place an oxymoron?

[Peter Pallotta]

Adam - my visceral response to your thread title, one of peace and longing both, parallels my response to your question, which is that when we set aside all the posturing and palaver and preening-self interest our hearts and souls *know* -- by way of feeling and intuition -- when a golf course has a true and deep and satisfying sense of place, and in that context I'd say the answer is "no", it cannot be manufactured. That we sometimes think and say that it can be (and indeed that it has often been) manufactured is a sad testament to how out of touch most of us have become with our intuitive sides, and to how superficial is our modern-day physical, emotional, and spiritual engagement with nature and with the land. 

A tall order, and an exacting demand/expectation to put on a field of play, I grant you; but I think that, if those in the golf industry/media feel free to use terms like "sense of place" as both a marketing tool and an expression of an ideal, I can certainly feel free to share my views about how rarely that ideal is ever actually met. 
Peter

[Jim_Kennedy]

 If you define a sense of place as something that has it's own identity, character, and value, then yes, it should be able to be created.

[Mac Plumart]

Adam,


You can certainly create one. 


Take Shadow Creek, for instance.  You are in a green garden paradise in the middle of the desert.  There in no question or doubt where you are when playing there.

[Peter Pallotta]

But *where* exactly are you, Mac? This "green garden paradise" could be *anywhere*, no?

What living resonance, what deep connection, what aesthetic appropriateness, what sense of history, and what geological meaning can hundreds of acres of lush green grass and billowing waterfalls possibly have to the Nevada desert?

Yes, you are indeed *someplace*, but it is someplace only because it is no-place and every-place, IMO

I mean, at the top of the discussion board right now is Benjamin's profile of Quogue Field Club; 5 seconds scanning two photos of the place and it speaks "sense of place" -- i.e. small town Long Island -- more clearly that 10 dozen Shadow Creeks, no?

Peter

[Adam Clayman]

Mac, I immediately thought of SC, but I kept running into that damn wall that the sense of SC's place is somewhere in North Carolina. Truthfully, that's not fair, today, because Mark Brenneman has altered that original impression enough to lessen that feeling.

Peter, Thanks for the prose. I'll have to re-read it when my brain returns to it's cranium. I didn't realize I was quoting marketing speak.
 
Jim, Perhaps it was a poor choice of words for what I was hoping to discuss.

I live in this amazingly wind swept region, that has micro regions where the flora, fauna and terrain, can change dramatically from one section to the next. (a section is one square mile) Yet, invariably the "local" courses are all built on sites that are the least interesting.(flat) There are a few that are the exceptions, but, even there, management's desire to assimilate their look, to these others, is readily apparent. Altering what I called their sense of place.

[Mark Pritchett]

All courses are created, but the je ne sais quoi can not be created.  If it could, every course would have that "sense of place"

You either have it or you don't.

[Kalen Braley]

You could try to recreate down to the inch a replica of somewhere like ANGC or NGLA if you had enough money and enough bull dozers....
 
But I doubt it would still be anywhere near the same experience as its not in the same place....

[Jim_Kennedy]

Adam,

Perhaps the choice of flat property has more to do with lower cost/complexity of construction, and possibly the desire to leave the flora/fauna found in the micro regions alone (must be fewer of them if they're micro 

The folks who choose the 'nicer' sites and overlook the obvious have no sense, never mind sense of place. 

[Sean_A]

A sense of place is exactly what I would say Mid Pines now has compared to 10 years ago.  The renovation recreated this sense which was willingly given up to bermuda and trees.  Just the same, I think it would take a very special project to create a sense of place.  Its more like archies grasp a sense of place, take advantage and enhance that sense.  Of course, having the right house is extremely important as well. 


Ciao

[Adam Clayman]

So, the choice of the site is paramount, to "pulling out" any sense of the place?

As an aside (maybe?),,,

I spoke with someone who had heard that Bill Coore asked Mike Keiser to buy additional ground up near Sand Valley. The person couldn't wrap their head around the fact that the designer couldn't create whatever they were going to create on the 1500 acres already purchased. Since I knew nothing about it, other than it was Bill Coore, all I could say was "It's Bill Coore".

[Jon Wiggett]

I spent three of the best years of my life at Buergenstock Golf and Country Club in Central Switzerland. This short 9 hole course played just shy of 2,300 yards from the backs and had a par of 33. It was a course that had evolved over the decades from its origins in 1926. The whole course had grown out of the landscape and along with the chalet style clubhouse offered one of golfs unique golfing experiences.

Sadly it is not possible to experience this special place and atmosphere which has been destroyed by a modernisation of the course which has in a few month destroyed what took many years to create. I am sure it is possible for a good GCA to create a fabulous and unique sense of place but as Adam says it is more often the case that something is lost. I suspect it is most likely to happen when the GCA spends a lot of time over a length of time to achieve the end result.

In the case of Buergenstock IMO it is not simply a case of poor and misguided GCA but a blatant case of wanton vandalism.

Jon

[Tommy Williamsen]

A sense of place is a fragile thing.  I belong to a SC club with a wonderful course, a great staff, and close membership.  About six years ago a new GM was hired. Just his presence changed the "feel" of the club. Last year he left. I just returned from a week there, it was amazing what a refreshing place it was again.  I was reminded why I joined. The whole package is what kept me going back for these twenty years.  I park my car and stay on site the entire time. 

[Niall C]

All courses are created, but the je ne sais quoi can not be created.  If it could, every course would have that "sense of place"

You either have it or you don't.

If the je ne sais quoi is a result of the course being created then you would have to say it has been created. The question surely then becomes was it meant and can it be planned ?


Niall

[Greg Smith]

The key is the concept of phenomenology, something I learned a lot about during (regular) architecture school back in the day.  The seminal book on the subject is Genius Loci:  Towards a Phenomenology of Architecture, by Christian Norberg-Schulz.  In the world of (regular) architecture, phenomenology is all about integrating built designs with the physical, historical, and cultural sense of place for that particular locale.
 
If a built environment can be successfully harmonized with the genius loci of a place -- i.e. reflecting or enhancing a sense of place -- there is no reason why we can't do that in landscape architecture and therefore in golf architecture.
 
I think back to the threads about the importance / nonimportance of "settings" in golf architecture.  Those thoughts would be germane to this subject.

[Adam Clayman]

So, The Louvre's new look would be like Seth Raynor's juxtaposition to nature?
 

[Greg Smith]

Actually CBM / Raynor were all about identifying genius loci.  Macdonald's theory was to find the "archetypal" hole concepts in Britain, codify their baseline qualities, adapt those qualities to a particular terrain in the States or elsewhere, then (once routed) finish the holes off as best indicated by local conditions. 
 
If CBM / Raynor simply pasted templates onto the landscape without attempting to divine the local genius loci, the result would have been horrible.  It would have looked just as forced as your typical containment-mound housing development course of the 1980s.  At places like NGLA or Fishers Island, the holes (though manufactured in style) are integrated with the landscape, and both holes and landscape are the better for it.
 
 

[Tom_Doak]

Actually CBM / Raynor were all about identifying genius loci.  Macdonald's theory was to find the "archetypal" hole concepts in Britain, codify their baseline qualities, adapt those qualities to a particular terrain in the States or elsewhere, then (once routed) finish the holes off as best indicated by local conditions. 
 
If CBM / Raynor simply pasted templates onto the landscape without attempting to divine the local genius loci, the result would have been horrible.  It would have looked just as forced as your typical containment-mound housing development course of the 1980s.  At places like NGLA or Fishers Island, the holes (though manufactured in style) are integrated with the landscape, and both holes and landscape are the better for it.

Do you have a quote from somewhere that Seth Raynor spoke of the genius loci ?  I find that highly unlikely.  He was great at finding the right piece of topo to build the Redan, which is not the same thing, as I understood the book. 


The Norberg-Schulz book was assigned reading at Cornell, and it wound up having much more application to golf architecture than a lot of the other things I read there.  So did my class on the Interpretation of Aerial Photographs ... none of us at the time anticipating anything like Google Earth.


I do, absolutely, believe that a strong sense of place is an important component of the best golf courses.  Pacific Dunes feels like the Oregon coast, both in the dunes and along the cliffs.  Stone Eagle feels like the mountains around Palm Springs, coming right down to the edge of your backyard.  Rock Creek feels like Montana in breadth and scale and it has mountain views to boot.  It's also why I dislike so many of the modern "signature" designs:  they feel more a part of the architect's style than they feel like a part of the land.

[Peter Pallotta]

As Tom notes, one of the key aspects of place is 'scale'.  I know this is sacrilegious , but for me a significant architectural drawback at Pebble Beach is the smallness of its greens -- even assuming a restoration back to their original size; the aesthetic clash in scale relative to the dramatic coastline and endless ocean and crashing waves has never sat right with me. No one else seems to mind too much, however, and PB is doing quite well despite this clash (financially and rankings-wise), so it's my problem I know. 
Peter

[Adam Clayman]

P2- Interesting comments on PB. I've never felt any out of scale aspects to the place, but my experiences are now 14 years in the rear view.

[Peter Pallotta]

Adam - that post was meant particularly for you, as was the note about the idea being sacrilegious. You know PB like the back of your hand, and played it countless times, and I 'know' it only from years of television watching; and so of course there's a big difference in the value of our opinions on it. But I just wanted to note my perception, which was that even during the Nicklaus-Snead match 50 decades ago, the scale of those greens seemed wrong to me.
Peter

[Steve Lang]

   Adam, 


So you sense that distant storm chasing across the horizon, and amount of wind-blown sand kicking up on the topography and choose an extra club type feeling?  Isn't that all you need out in the Neb Plalns... perhaps some epistemology before phenomenology?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Adam, for what its worth, a sense of place was the first lesson taught in landscape architecture school.  And the best way to do it, they taught, was to leave nature as alone as it was possible to do.

[Tom_Doak]

Adam, for what its worth, a sense of place was the first lesson taught in landscape architecture school.  And the best way to do it, they taught, was to leave nature as alone as it was possible to do.

And then they teach you to build everything by drawing grading plans, where every line you draw means you're tearing up the natural ground. 

[Adam Clayman]

Peter, I noted your perception and thought it was interesting because I suspected you'd only seen it from afaaar. I didn't devalue that perception at all, but I did scourer my synapses to see if I had missed something, because, admittedly scale is one of the more tricky nuances for a layman to pick up on. But, having done so, (scoured that is) I feel comfortable that for whatever reasons, Pebble's green's scale is not out of whack. Those reasons could be many, but I suspect paramount is that each approach is so varied with differing looks, both long and short of the green. Plus, there's enough room, within the immediate surrounds of the greens, that increases their playable size. I could give the numerous examples of the kickplate like attributes on the holes. (even if they are covered in some antiquated Westchester County standardized type  of rough presentation mitigating their ability to kick, unless dry. But I won't bore you) The recent 17th hoe modifications made me throw up a little in my mouth, mostly because they kept that stupid presentation (S/O to ChipOat) between the bunker and the green, especially on the magnificent left side, but they took out the kick plate. P.s. I could give a rat's patootie if mound was accentuated from years of sand splash.

Seve, I think I'm understanding your point? All I can say is that there's a difference in feeling when the gca is off, and feeling the elements needed to execute any particular shot. I don't believe one will feel much, when the scale is right, or perfect, but when it's off, there's just something potentially jarring about it. I suppose an architect could justify deliberately doing it, to somehow get into the players head, but, that would likely have to be on an individual hole, and not on the whole.

Jeff, Tom, I hope you two can keep this dialogue going as it's better than I could've hoped for, from a learning perspective about both of your perspectives. thanks

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