[Evan_Green]

First of all let me say that I love this course and this comment could apply to many courses similar to Pasatiempo.

When McKenzie designed this course with its extremely undulating greens he did it I am sure with the grass cutting technology of the day in mind. Now that technology has allowed the greens keepers to mow the greens really tight, some of the greens at Pasatiempo are downright rediculous. Its just not what McKenzie had in mind when a well hit iron shot that would have been 10 feet from the hole in his day rolls 40 feet away from the hole.

My point is simply that cutting the greens to lightning speed do an injustice to the design.

Also they really need to get rid of some of those tree limbs on that short uphill par 3 on the front nine, i think its number 6 or 7, but thats another thread alltogether.

[ed_getka]

Evan,
 The greenspeeds at Pasa are generally agreed to be too fast, but since it only becomes really problematic a few times a round it isn't unlivable. #7 is a bowling alley for sure, but with liability issues of our time make cutting down trees very unlikely. Its a shame because #7 has a cool green that really needs a wider fairway to bring back some of the original strategy. As it is you just have to put it down the middle or else.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I think you should bring Huck as a caddie. He will not admit to knowing them like a key part of his bod, but do not believe him.

[THuckaby2]

Well, I suppose if there are greens on earth I ought to know, those at Pasa would be the ones!  I still get fooled by them so damn often, I'm not sure how good a caddie I would be...  

But Evan, in any case you are correct - this is something we've discussed many times in here, and a point I've try to hammer home ad nauseam - most times these days the greens are maintained as too fast for the contours, leading to absurd situations with the ball not staying by the hole - if they use pin placements on the contours - or alternatively, just rendering useless huge portions of many of the greens as they don't put pins there because they know the absurdity.  This occurs on large portions of 8, 9, 11 and 16 - those are just the "worst" examples.

Not sure what you mean by tree limbs on front nine par 3... by my reckoning there's not much in the way on any of 3, 5, 8 - the three par 3's on the front nine... I guess you must mean 5 - but man that's not exactly "short"...

TH

[Bill_McBride]

Those greens at Pasatiempo look big, but Neal Meagher proved how small they really are (in terms of pinnable area) during our round at the KPII.  Neal, ever the curious architect, brought along his slope-a-meter (sounds like Gallagher's sledge-a-matic but less destructive!) and measured a few slopes.  As I recall, and don't hold me to this, the front slope of #8 and #16 were both in the 16 degree range.  #11 a bit less.  I think Neal said that 2-3 degrees is max for pinnable slope.  So the greens at Pasatiempo were probably always intended to be that steep, the key is proper positioning of the approach.  Of course this is even more critical today with the 10 stimp vs 6 or 7 in early days.  I don't believe there are more than 300 pinnable square feet on #16!

To me, the wildest slope at Pasa is the one you don't see but is so strong -- left to right on #17.  It feeds right off that hill to the left and you really don't see it when you hit that chip, until it winds up 25' to the right of where you aimed!  

[THuckaby2]

Bill:

Shivas can attest to the slope on 17, oh yes he can.... perhaps he'll favor us with a re-living of his 10-putt there?  

Good call in any case.  That green doesn't LOOK it, but sure does have a huge left to right slope.  Quicken it up to much and it too becomes absurd.

TH

[THuckaby2]

Thank you, shivas.  You are nothing if not a very good sport.  And hey, as is the case in most things for me, the story just grows and grows in my mind as time goes on... next time I mention this it's likely to be a 12-putt!

 

That is one bitch of a green....

TH

[ed_getka]

I didn't even notice Evan was talking about a par 3 with tree limb issues, I just immediately assumed he must be talking about #7. You would have to be really off line to have tree issues on a par 3 on the front side. As wild as I can be I have never hit a branch on a par 3. #15 on the back nine would be the most likely candidate for some trimming. I feels claustrophobic on the back tee there.

[Carlyle Rood]

On two occasions at Pasatiempo, I couldn't determine whether I was putting uphill or downhill!  That's never happened to me before or since.

C

P.S. See here for Pasatiempo photos: http://www.golfarch.com/Pasatiempo/

[THuckaby2]

Ed:  oh yes, 7 could definitely use some chain-saw work, but you do know the safety issues there, right?  There's just so little room for 6-7-8 combined that remove those trees and litigation would result toot-sweet.  In fact the beaning death of a player on 8 green from a wayward shot off 7 tee is the reason those trees left of 7 exist, or so they say.... So we live with what we have there... and thus Pasa has a definite weakness.

Re 15, well... I've never felt claustrophobic on that tee but I can understand the sentiment.  Trim some of those branches to the right of the tee and more light gets through, helping the health of the grass on that tee, which never has been the best... Not a bad idea....

TH

[Neal_Meagher]

Bill McBride,

Yes, you are right about me checking out those slopes.  I like the term slope-a-meter, but it's actually called a SmartTool.  It acts like a carpenter's level but digitally displays slope expressed as a percentage or by degree.

In the case of Pasatiempo, the slopes on the right front of No. 16 were closing in on 16%, not degrees.  Still, that is downright steep.  Many of the areas that had holes cut in them, were in the  4-5% range, also really steep for today's speeds.

[Mike Benham]

P.S. See here for Pasatiempo photos: http://www.golfarch.com/Pasatiempo/

Carlyle,

I refer to your sight and the Pasa pages often.  Thanks for taking and posting those photos ...

Mike

[Bill_McBride]

Neal, you know me and math.  16% slope is steep.  What would 16 degrees be expressed as a percentage?

Looking at Carlyle's beautiful photo of #3 - it's never occurred to me before, but is it possible that could be played as a reverse Redan?  I was absolutely thrilled to knock a spoon on there in March, don't know what would happen to the same shot played into the left slope but maybe a good result..........  As I recall, at least three of us hit that green with our tee balls, which had to be some kind of record.  And Dan King was there as a witness.

[Michael Goody]

I feel so cheated- have only made it out to pasatiempo once (last fall) and it was shortly after aeration and lots of moisture on the greens. As a result, the greens were downright slow- there were a couple of places where I put the ball where I knew I would have had an impossible putt had the greens been fast (above a middle pin on number eight being the most terrifying, from my recollection).

And thinking back, I can't imagine sixteen under normal conditions. That green will tighten the sphincter from the fairway, let alone when one is putting.

I did think 15 could use some tree trimming- but I might have been more intimidated by the optics than anything else, I don't believe that the tree interfered with my ball flight or that of my playing partners. It just seemed awfully tight to get at a front left pin.

All in all, a course I truly loved playing. I can't wait to get back!!!

[Evan_Green]

I didn't even notice Evan was talking about a par 3 with tree limb issues, I just immediately assumed he must be talking about #7. You would have to be really off line to have tree issues on a par 3 on the front side. As wild as I can be I have never hit a branch on a par 3. #15 on the back nine would be the most likely candidate for some trimming. I feels claustrophobic on the back tee there.

Sorry I meant par 4! #7. It was late when I typed that

[THuckaby2]

AHA!  7.  OK, that is a common complaint.  But you do understand the safety issues, no?

TH

[Peter Galea]

Number 7: "Nothing a case of Vasaline® couldn't cure."
3 iron off the tee, center-left. Don't even think of another club.

[GeoffreyC]

Pete

That was always the play on #7 the many previous times I've played there.  At KP2 I did hit my hybrid 2iron/5wood thingy.  I think it might have been Cirba (or Gib I forget) who hit driver and with the distances achieved these days the greatly wider area within 50-80 yards of the green can be reached. THere is MUCH more room up there and I now wonder if driver isn't a good play.

Comments form those who play Pasa more frequently.

[THuckaby2]

Driver is a decent play on 7, the only thing is you MUST curve the ball right to left.  If that's your normal shot, then heck yeah fire away... aim at the tree/bunker in the distance on the right side, draw it from there, and yes there is a fairly wide area to the left and a little past that, leaving a simple pitch in, from the best angle also.

The whole key is that right to left is MANDATORY, given how the trees are...

If that's not one's normal shot, then 3iron or less remains the play.

Given the righteous curve my shots tend to take, I only hit driver there in "what the f*ck, why not?" situations.  

TH

[Peter Galea]

O.K. If I've made double on one or more of the previous six holes, I hit driver. If the "card and pencil" is better than that, no way!

[GeoffreyC]

Thanks guys-  It does look wider up there but right to left is not usually the preferred flight of this left handers ball.

Pete- I was one under par at that point and pissing Mr. Huntley off to no end.  No way I was going with anything but a layup (I did make my par).

[Joe Hancock]

Shivas,

Easy for you to say! Trees don't have much of a chance against your bullets!

Joe

[Evan_Green]

It's a driver.  If you're going to hit a tree, hit it with force, I always say.  It might kick out.

What is it they say? Trees are 90% air!!! I guess not on that hole LOL

[Ken_Cotner]

I played Pasa a month ago, and found the greens to be very manageable.  Fantastic condition; wonderfully confounding; but the speed was OK.

I did witness a playing companion putt off the green from the top tier on 16, but he just hit it too hard.  Hole was on the middle tier on the right, his approach hit just inches on the left side of the top tier, hopped forward, then spun back into its pitch mark.  Local kid, too, knew the course very well.  I wisely played my approach pin high just left of the green -- easy up and down for 4.

The course was a boatload of fun (except for the first half of #7).  Man, I loved those greens...

Ken

[THuckaby2]

It is a boatload of fun for sure, Ken - sorry I missed you.  

And you got a tough pin on 16... when the greens get quick, they can't even put it there - every single downhill putt will run off the front.  Thus it's almost always on the back shelf...

And therein lies the problem.  In any case, good to hear the greens were doable in August.  Maybe the powers that be are wising up, FINALLY....

TH

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