[Patrick_Mucci]

that you've ever played ?


In the U.S. ?


And might it just be the hardest par 4 ?


Only 379

[astavrides]

It's certainly a demanding and interesting 2nd shot, but the forced layup off the tee gives it a bit of an asterisk for being under 400 yards.
I appreciate the more explicit thread titles by the way.

[Jackson C]

It is very hard and plays much longer because it is uphill.  The green is small and severe.
From the tee it is hard to pick the line.  My guess is this was intended visual deception.

[Josh Tarble]

I actually think 16 is much harder than 11.  Everything is right in front of you on 11.  Just hit it straight.


On 16 you must pick a line on a blind tee shot & stay on top of the hogs back, with the green being much more severe as well.

[Bill_McBride]

Yes.

[BShannon]

#11 at Pasatiempo is certainly one of the hardest (and definitely harder than #16), but I'd say #10 at Butler National is THE hardest under 400 that I've ever played.

[Greg Taylor]

Shoot off between 16 and 11... I'd say the drive on 16 is harder but the approach is slightly easier. Both all world holes. I putted off the green at 11... "de-greened" myself.


Was is me or is the 17th at Pasa a bit of a dud...?!

[John Cowden]

I suggest 17 grows on you the more you play it.  Uphill, but short, with the second shot to the very large/long, very deceptive restored green where the bottom of the pin is hidden, I've come to truly enjoy the hole over many, many playings.  Three putts quite common.

[ed_getka]

It's certainly a demanding and interesting 2nd shot, but the forced layup off the tee gives it a bit of an asterisk for being under 400 yards.
I appreciate the more explicit thread titles by the way.

What forced layup? Bobby Jones just took it over the barranca?
It is certainly one of the more difficult par 4's I've ever played. Deciding how close to get to the barranca on your drive, then a longer than it looks approach to a very sloped green. I think I have only played the hole once since Tom D and crew tamed the green a little bit. Any downhill putt used to be close to an automatic 3 putt. I always enjoyed the challenge of that hole. I certainly think it is challenging and certainly seems like it should be easier than 16, but if I could look back over old scorecards I would imagine my stroke average for both holes is about the same. 2 really good holes on a course that has plenty of good holes.

[Mike Benham]

Believing that the tee shot needs to be a "layup" is the first issue.

On the 11th, there is enough fairway to hit a 260 yard linear tee shot, however, the elevation rise is nearly 60 feet at that distance so the effective tee shot is closer to 270.

It's certainly a demanding and interesting 2nd shot, but the forced layup off the tee gives it a bit of an asterisk for being under 400 yards.

[John Kirk]

It's certainly a demanding and interesting 2nd shot, but the forced layup off the tee gives it a bit of an asterisk for being under 400 yards.
I appreciate the more explicit thread titles by the way.

AS,

For me, a medium long, middle-aged player, I hit driver here.  I don't hold back, aiming a bit right of center and bombing it up there as far as possible.  It's way uphill, and a drive that typically travels 250-260 yards might travel 230 yards, leaving 150 yards, which is probably a 7-iron for me, as the approach shot plays 1-1.5 clubs uphill.  That's the goal.  The last thing I want is a long iron from an uphill lie, with the hazard looming just right of the green.  Brutally difficult, and yet, so satisfying when par is achieved.

Pat, great to hear you are enjoying a west coast swing.  Those Monterey Bay courses are just wonderful.

[Ben Baldwin]

I actually think 16 is much harder than 11.  Everything is right in front of you on 11.  Just hit it straight.


On 16 you must pick a line on a blind tee shot & stay on top of the hogs back, with the green being much more severe as well.

I'd concur as well... 11 is a tough hole, but the second shot (based on likeliness of having a crazy sidehill lie) and the green on 16 are pretty darn challenging.

[Mark Provenzano]

I'm not sure if it's the hardest, but it's certainly the longest short par 4 I've ever played.

[Joel_Stewart]

It was harder just a few years ago when the green had more slope. Tom Doak and Jim Urbina softened it so people could keep the ball on the green when putting downhill.

[Bill_McBride]

It was harder just a few years ago when the green had more slope. Tom Doak and Jim Urbina softened it so people could keep the ball on the green when putting downhill.

Pretty expensive compared to raising the mower blades a tiny amount and lowering the stimp reading to 9.

[John Cowden]

Opening Day, 1929, on the tee at no. 11, Bobby Jones is reported to have said, "So I just hit over those Christmas trees?", and he did.

[Bill_McBride]

Opening Day, 1929, on the tee at no. 11, Bobby Jones is reported to have said, "So I just hit over those Christmas trees?", and he did.

The trees in the barranca are now what, 80' tall?   Jones hooked one into the 12h fairway, you couldn't do that today. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

I actually think 16 is much harder than 11. 


Josh,

What's your handicap ?


[size=78%]Everything is right in front of you on 11.  Just hit it straight.[/size]

If you call hitting a long approach shot from an uphill lie, to a narrow green angled to your left with little, if any margin of error on your right, just "hitting it straight" you must be ready for the PGA Tour.Recently I hit a 3-wood, after a solid drive, into # 11.On # 16 I hit a 6-iron to a back hole location after a decent drive.The consequences for missing the green on # 11 is far more dire.A 3 putt is only one more stroke than a 2 putt, but not making it across the ravine/hazard will cost you more than 1 stroke
[size=78%][/sze]

On 16 you must pick a line on a blind tee shot & stay on top of the hogs back, with the green being much more severe as well.




[/size]Most solid drives are far beyond the hogs back feature and the DZ is quite generous as is the size of # 16 green[size=78%]

[/size]

[Patrick_Mucci]

It's certainly a demanding and interesting 2nd shot, but the forced layup off the tee gives it a bit of an asterisk for being under 400 yards.


"Forced layup".   You. Must be kidding.
You couldn't reach the end of that fairway in your dreams.

There's no roll, as those fairways are no longer burned out
And you're not carrying the ball close to 300.
If you swing that fast/hard, OB and the ravine loom large.

Even if you did, the approach shot into that green is daunting.


I appreciate the more explicit thread titles by the way.


Thanks, but they have no impact, whatsoever, on the content of the threads

[Patrick_Mucci]

Shoot off between 16 and 11... I'd say the drive on 16 is harder but the approach is slightly easier. Both all world holes. I putted off the green at 11... "de-greened" myself.


Was is me or is the 17th at Pasa a bit of a dud...?!


GregT,

It's you.

While the drive to the sloped fairway may seem benign, the approach shot to that LONG elongated green from an uphill-side hill lie is difficult, especially when the hole is cut in the back of the green.

And, that green has a subtle tier/ridge running from front to back which makes long putts especially difficult.

Most golfers don't have the nerve or ability to attack a back hole location.

# 17 is a very good hole, you just don't know it yet

[Patrick_Mucci]

Believing that the tee shot needs to be a "layup" is the first issue.

On the 11th, there is enough fairway to hit a 260 yard linear tee shot, however, the elevation rise is nearly 60 feet at that distance so the effective tee shot is closer to 270.

Mike,

Agreed.

And, it plays longer than 270

It's certainly a demanding and interesting 2nd shot, but the forced layup off the tee gives it a bit of an asterisk for being under 400 yards.

[Patrick_Mucci]

John,

We're having a great time.

36 a day

Don't forget that a 150 yard shot off of an uphill lie to a green elevated above you probably plays 170.

I had 180 after a really solid drive and played it at 200.
Hit a good wood that just caught the upper edge of the right side bunker and it rolled back in the bunker.

Wedged out to 10 feet and missed the putt.  Pasatiempo is in good condition and there's not much roll in that fairway.

On a Saturday, with a 10:50 tee time, we played in less than 4 hours.

How can "Golf Digest" NOT rank Pasatiempo in the top 100 ?

I'm anxious to see how Fazio's enormous project at MPCC (Dunes) turns out




It's certainly a demanding and interesting 2nd shot, but the forced layup off the tee gives it a bit of an asterisk for being under 400 yards.
I appreciate the more explicit thread titles by the way.

AS,

For me, a medium long, middle-aged player, I hit driver here.  I don't hold back, aiming a bit right of center and bombing it up there as far as possible.  It's way uphill, and a drive that typically travels 250-260 yards might travel 230 yards, leaving 150 yards, which is probably a 7-iron for me, as the approach shot plays 1-1.5 clubs uphill.  That's the goal.  The last thing I want is a long iron from an uphill lie, with the hazard looming just right of the green.  Brutally difficult, and yet, so satisfying when par is achieved.

Pat, great to hear you are enjoying a west coast swing.  Those Monterey Bay courses are just wonderful.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Opening Day, 1929, on the tee at no. 11, Bobby Jones is reported to have said, "So I just hit over those Christmas trees?", and he did.


In 1929 those trees were 4 feet high.

Don't believe everything that's "reported"

[David Stamm]

I tend to agree that the 11th there is amongst the toughest medium par 4's anywhere. The second can be scary if you don't stripe it off the tee.

[John Cowden]

...and that's how Bobby Jones' played up the 12th fairway to the 11th green on Opening Day, 1929, when the trees in the barranca between 11 and 12 were 4 feet high.

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