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Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
What is Minimalism?
« on: August 17, 2015, 05:40:53 AM »
Dear Collective,
 
Really and truly, we should be passed this. Then again, and without wishing to start a fight, a few recent posts have got me thinking that the whole concept of what minimalism really is is not so clear cut. So the question is simple: what is minimalism?
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is Minimalism?
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2015, 05:50:52 AM »
Paul - I don't think it is totally clear. Some people think it refers to low cost and some think it involves minimal land reformation.


There are also .....degrees of.



A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is Minimalism?
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2015, 06:26:18 AM »
Adrian,
 
Your response highlights the lack of clarity I referred to. Clearly, as you say, it means different things to different people. Below is the response I gave Ryan when he raised the question. It is unrecognisable from your interpretation:
 
It really doesn't take much explaining. To attach as simple a catchphrase to it as possible, less can be more. C'est ca.

So, an example I guess:

The 5th at Hayling is often used as an example of Simpson's minimalist genius. It's circa 160 yards, has a narrow plateau green and has one lone bunker at the front left. The prevailing wind is from the left. It is surrounded by short grass. That is it. That simple bit of not very much is one of the finest par 3's I know of. It does so much with so little. Equally, the simple process of sticking a green on a postage stamp sized bit of earth at Troon created a design classic. Whether earth was or wasn't moved
(edit - or much money spent) to create either of these holes is of no relevance. 
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is Minimalism?
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2015, 09:16:56 AM »
I thought it simply meant it looked like they hadn't moved much dirt but that reality might be something different depending on the site. Has anyone ever written a definition that has been accepted as the definitive version ?


Niall

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is Minimalism?
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2015, 09:40:57 AM »
Wasn't the minimalist movement in golf a reaction to the designs of the 60s, 70s, and 80s?
The designs during these decades seemed to be based on improved construction techniques and equipment allowing for more efficient earthwork and a focus on obvious man-made aesthetics and agronomic presentation.
While the minimalist movement was based on a return to natural looking courses that appeared to be found, and with a strong effort to hide the hand of man no mater how heavily used.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: What is Minimalism?
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2015, 10:00:42 AM »
Dear Collective,
 
Really and truly, we should be passed this. Then again, and without wishing to start a fight, a few recent posts have got me thinking that the whole concept of what minimalism really is is not so clear cut. So the question is simple: what is minimalism?


Paul:


It's not clear cut.  That's the nature of the golf business:  anytime anyone does anything [or says anything] good, everyone else will say they have been doing that all along.  Think of how the term "links" has been totally corrupted over the past 30 years.


Nevertheless, it's pretty clear to me that there are different philosophies of golf course design being practiced, and not everyone has the same approach.


I don't care what you call it or how you define it, and I'm tired of writing copy for everyone else in the business trying to explain it. 


Just don't pretend there's no difference in what we all do, and I'll be fine.

Mark Fedeli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is Minimalism?
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2015, 10:02:46 AM »
Wasn't the minimalist movement in golf a reaction to the designs of the 60s, 70s, and 80s?
The designs during these decades seemed to be based on improved construction techniques and equipment allowing for more efficient earthwork and a focus on obvious man-made aesthetics and agronomic presentation.
While the minimalist movement was based on a return to natural looking courses that appeared to be found, and with a strong effort to hide the hand of man no mater how heavily used.

Don, doesn't that more accurately describe "naturalism"? Shouldn't the definition of minimalism be specifically about moving as little earth as possible and not mention at all the attempts to simply give that impression? In other words, naturalism is a look, minimalism is a practice.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2015, 10:37:46 AM by Mark Fedeli »
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is Minimalism?
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2015, 12:00:54 PM »
Dear Collective,
 
Really and truly, we should be passed this. Then again, and without wishing to start a fight, a few recent posts have got me thinking that the whole concept of what minimalism really is is not so clear cut. So the question is simple: what is minimalism?


Paul:


It's not clear cut.  That's the nature of the golf business:  anytime anyone does anything [or says anything] good, everyone else will say they have been doing that all along.  Think of how the term "links" has been totally corrupted over the past 30 years.


Nevertheless, it's pretty clear to me that there are different philosophies of golf course design being practiced, and not everyone has the same approach.


I don't care what you call it or how you define it, and I'm tired of writing copy for everyone else in the business trying to explain it. 


Just don't pretend there's no difference in what we all do, and I'll be fine.

Your frustration is understandable. My concern is that a lack of a clear definition/clear understanding opens the flood gates for those wishing to piggyback a ride on those with the greatest integrity and artistic skill. When I hear Jack Nicklaus question minimalism whilst simultaneously borrowing from it, I wonder whether it's a grudge, a degree of smarts or a degree of ignorance being exposed. In reality, I suspect it might just be all three. I've always suspected rejection of minimalism has less to do with the word or the ethos and far more to do with the balance of power.
 
 
« Last Edit: August 17, 2015, 03:05:33 PM by Paul Gray »
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is Minimalism?
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2015, 12:18:47 PM »
Dear Collective,
 
Really and truly, we should be passed this. Then again, and without wishing to start a fight, a few recent posts have got me thinking that the whole concept of what minimalism really is is not so clear cut. So the question is simple: what is minimalism?


Paul:


It's not clear cut.  That's the nature of the golf business:  anytime anyone does anything [or says anything] good, everyone else will say they have been doing that all along.  Think of how the term "links" has been totally corrupted over the past 30 years.


Nevertheless, it's pretty clear to me that there are different philosophies of golf course design being practiced, and not everyone has the same approach.


I don't care what you call it or how you define it, and I'm tired of writing copy for everyone else in the business trying to explain it. 


Just don't pretend there's no difference in what we all do, and I'll be fine.


Tom,
Please define "links". I played 9-10 courses in Ireland and by my definition the only links course I played was RCD. I never once hit a chip at RCD. Putted everything and hit numerous approach shots where I tried to play
 a shot short and run it onto the green. Nowhere else I played was that necessary. Lahinch, Ballybunion, and Portrush were among the courses I played.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is Minimalism?
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2015, 12:46:27 PM »
Rob,

Simple as this is going to sound, links golf is specific to linksland, a unique landscape created by nature by the sea in a very specific way. It's just that.

Now, what is minimalism?
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is Minimalism?
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2015, 01:53:18 PM »
I think "Minimalism" is a mindset.

I played a course this past weekend where it's clear the architect was intent on imposing his theme, his style, his construction, and his holes on the landscape, natural features be damned.

I think by contrast a minimalist architect approaches each job with the idea of finding and utilizing as much of the native landscape as possible, only moving earth when no other option is available.   They do so out of the general belief that nothing they can create will have the almost infinite variety and nuance as what Mother Nature already provides, nor look as natural.

Interestingly, many of those using non-minimalist techniques get a big piece of the construction pie as well.   That's probably not a coincidence.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is Minimalism?
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2015, 06:10:24 PM »
I think "Minimalism" is a mindset.

I played a course this past weekend where it's clear the architect was intent on imposing his theme, his style, his construction, and his holes on the landscape, natural features be damned.

I think by contrast a minimalist architect approaches each job with the idea of finding and utilizing as much of the native landscape as possible, only moving earth when no other option is available.   They do so out of the general belief that nothing they can create will have the almost infinite variety and nuance as what Mother Nature already provides, nor look as natural.


I for one feel glad that say Kyle Phillips ignored this syrupy marketing copy at say Kingsbarns.

Mark Pavy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is Minimalism?
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2015, 06:28:27 PM »
A buzzword that all architects use on their websites and presentations.

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is Minimalism?
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2015, 06:49:02 PM »
I think "Minimalism" is a mindset.

I played a course this past weekend where it's clear the architect was intent on imposing his theme, his style, his construction, and his holes on the landscape, natural features be damned.

I think by contrast a minimalist architect approaches each job with the idea of finding and utilizing as much of the native landscape as possible, only moving earth when no other option is available.   They do so out of the general belief that nothing they can create will have the almost infinite variety and nuance as what Mother Nature already provides, nor look as natural.


I for one feel glad that say Kyle Phillips ignored this syrupy marketing copy at say Kingsbarns.


I was thinking about this whilst playing a few holes after work and it occurred to me that it really is a mindset. Surprise, surprise, my next thought was exactly how Ryan would choose to dismiss it!  ;D


What Mr. Cirba says here is really no different to what Ran has to say on page one of this website. "Nature is the best architect" is, I believe, the expression Ran uses.


I fear those guilty of attempting to copy minimalist architecture without even understanding what it is might be similarly guilty of sullying its name. A parrot can talk but it can't understand what it's saying. Of course, sullying the name of minimalism might well be in the interests of the old guard. If they can divide, they can rule, or at least delay the changing of the guard. Claim minimalism is just the latest version of the Emperor's New Clothes and you might just sneak in a few more lucrative contracts before you're resigned to the history books. 
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Peter Pallotta

Re: What is Minimalism?
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2015, 10:37:16 PM »
Paul:

I think minimalism is not primarily a philosophy, it is much more importantly a skill-set. It is the ability to recognize, value and utilize the site's features and characteristics to maximum effect (qualitatively) and to a maximum degree (quantitatively) in the creation of an engaging field of play; and it is a practical commitment to altering the landscape only as a last (but still viable) option, when it is determined after due consideration that the site's existing qualities do not offer sufficient golf-related challenge and/or interest. Some architects have that skill set, and a few of those to a greater degree than most; and then some architects don't. They simply are unable "to see" the possibilities and potentialities inherent in the existing site as well as others can. 

I think the same skill-set is required if the goal is naturalism (which I believe many confuse with minimalism), but in that case the greater aesthetic and strategic value placed on hiding the hand of man as thoroughly as possible (while at the same time creating the appearance of true golfing freedom/almost limitless strategic options) re-orders the architect's commitment to the site's pre-existing features/characteristics and places it a little further down (but not too far down) the list of priorities. Again, some architects have the required skill set and, in this case, also have the practical know-how (e.g. effectively blurring the lines between fairway and rough; subtly extending green contours out into the surrounds etc) related to creating a naturalistic field of play; and some architects don't.

I'm not sure this is any more of a grey area/question than is the distinction between restorations and renovations; but in both cases it obviously serves the purposes/ends of many in the golf industry to make it appear so.   

Peter
 
« Last Edit: August 17, 2015, 11:29:15 PM by PPallotta »

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is Minimalism?
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2015, 02:05:28 AM »
Peter, you've described it far better than I could but your thoughts are exactly aligned with mine.

Now people should also realise that all of our favourite architects have prioritised minimalism or naturalism depending on the site and that for most, final aesthetics play a huge part in the process, many times at the expense of a true minimalistic approach.

Once that is understood, we can get on enjoying the end result, regardless of how it was arrived at.

Though true minimalism usually has significant budgetary advantages and therefore should be applauded. The only problem is that a true minimalist course on an average site wouldn't get talked about ever on this website. Not enough bling.

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is Minimalism?
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2015, 04:37:11 AM »
Top marks to Peter and Ally.
 
Now then people, that's what 'higher standards.' looks like.  ;D
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is Minimalism?
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2015, 07:39:34 AM »
Peter,

Well said, but I believe it starts fundamentally with a mindset and the best practitioners bring the skill - set you describe but I also believe bad minimalism is possible. 
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is Minimalism?
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2015, 07:53:54 AM »
Paul,

"My concern is that a lack of a clear definition/clear understanding opens the flood gates for those wishing to piggyback a ride on those with the greatest integrity and artistic skill."



Too late........ ;)

More seriously, I also wonder about a more concrete meaning of "restoration". Some architects do their normal thing, and then call it a restoration, because they are bringing it back to a better condition and design.  Most here wouldn't call that restoration.  Some do a lot of research and start with the goal of getting a course back to year XXXX, whatever the highlight year might be, or the very original design.  However, even with the best intent, must accommodate paths, irrigation, forward tees, new grasses, etc. etc. etc.  The two types of architects might end up near the same spot, due to the practical nature of things, so does attitude, starting point and intent make a difference?

The late Jay Morrish used to joke that most of us are "necessitists" which would actually be a pretty decent take on minimalism....do what you need and not a lot more as a matter of philosophy.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is Minimalism?
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2015, 09:46:41 AM »
Peter,

Well said, but I believe it starts fundamentally with a mindset and the best practitioners bring the skill - set you describe but I also believe bad minimalism is possible.

Yep. A mindset which stimulates a skill set, no? That is my take, anyway.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is Minimalism?
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2015, 10:49:24 AM »
Paul,

Yes probably a mindset, but ability to see things (and not dead people....) sure varies among architects.  At least, based on the 10-20 young men I have had work for me over the years.  Very few can really see how a slope (general or detailed) can be used, or at least influence the design.  It can be learned to a degree, but still its innate ability.

Its hard to explain, but one example from early in my career. I was out setting stakes for the 8th green at Lake Arrowhead in Wisconsin.  I drew the plan the past winter (1979-80) and was working in the field.  Killian and Nugent were pretty standard (like Press Maxwell) 2, 3 or 4 mounds behind the green.  I think I had drawn 3, but when I set the stake out for the back left corner and it read on the transit as "Fill 14" when the others were more standard 5 or 6, it was a light bulb moment for me.  I knew filling 14 feet wasn't going to look good, would require tree removal, etc. and it always stuck with me.  When I do back mounds, or even the high point of the green, I make sure they favor the high side, and they have always look better.

Some never see it, even with experience.  Or as my Dad used to say, some people have 20 years experience, and others have 1 year experience, 20 times over.  It has to be part of how we are wired at birth to think. The typical (but not good designers) thought process for many people tends to be straight line, not assessing literally hundreds of options, based on what you see.  Considering many options simultaneously is the root of creativity, as I see it, but many humans just don't have that ability.

In fact, many architects (including sometimes me on flat ground) do pull out old plans, going for a balance of holes, favored designs, etc.  And, there is some merit to that, and it is very common.  There is some balance over just using the land, as you want to design a unique (best if you follow the land) but balanced (usually better if you have a few preconceived ideas to place appropriately on featureless ground).

Some of it is mindset.  Somewhere in my files, I have an old Rees Jones mass grading plan. I used to call them "spaceship plans" because they didn't really do a grading plan, they simply put an oval (tried to make it look 3D, hence the spaceship) indicating where they were going to pile fill for later shaping.  Obviously, with that mindset, you are going to build over that site and figure it out later.  To be fair to Rees and company, this was Wild Wing, a very flat site that had to be built mostly with fill (although I was always proud of how little earth moving just to dry out fairways I was able to do) 

Many Donald Ross plans show similar thinking, also to be fair....  it really has been along time since architects truly "found holes" that required no earthmoving.  I am fairly sure that even in Scotland, hilltops were flattened enough to make reasonable greens.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is Minimalism?
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2015, 11:24:06 AM »
As a design philosophy, minimalism needs a great piece of land, first and foremost.


In other words, the essence of the concept is to retain as many natural stunning features as possible.


If there is nothing worth retaining, then we must create, and I've always felt that minimalism also subscribes to the notion that natural looking features, even if they are man made, are better than un-natural features.


Surely, Renaissance Golf Design does not consider Texas Tech their most minimalist course, yet nor did they build another Stone Harbor.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 11:34:18 AM by Michael Dugger »
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is Minimalism?
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2015, 11:26:20 AM »

Yep. A mindset which stimulates a skill set, no? That is my take, anyway.

Paul,

Yes, agreed.

Jeff,

Good practical discussion points.   Thanks for adding some real world perspective and experience in our theoretical discussion.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is Minimalism?
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2015, 11:30:27 AM »
Perhaps not 100% related, but these are snippets from my next column in Golf Course Industry, due about a month out.  So, I cannot share it all, but it contained a few thoughts loosely related to minimalism:

As Steve Jobs said, “Design is not just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works.”  Golf architecture is “arranging elements to best accomplish the particular purpose of making golfers’ enjoy their rounds.” “Following the land” and “creating strategy” are only tools in facilitating a better golf experience, not the end goal. 

Constraints are good

It always seems as if the land next door is better, but designers embrace constraints to form a unique design.  Don’t lament over your constraints.

Simplicity Pays

Einstein once said, “We should make things as simple as they can be, but not simpler.”
All things being equal, the best design is the simplest one.  Undue complication, requiring Rube Goldberg engineering to pull off, is usually a sign of poor concept.

A cheekier quote from Colin Wright concerning the difference between “pure art” and golf course design:
 
“Art is like masturbation. It is done for you alone. Design is like sex. There is someone else involved, their needs are just as important as your own, and if everything goes right, both parties are happy in the end.”
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is Minimalism?
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2015, 12:14:21 PM »
I'd like to add one other thing about the "minimalists".
They seem to have a better understanding that if you don't disturb the ground, there will be less remediation required to grow quality turf.

In my experience, it seems most in golf think you can completely destroy the soil and just bring it back by ripping it, adding a few amendments, or putting a thin layer of sand on top of it. What no one ever talks about is the long term consequences of modern golf course construction techniques. It is a large reason why our maintenance budgets are so high.

Sand capping has become popular not just because it allows for a little better internal drainage, but because hardly anyone knows how to handle top soil anymore. Sand capping allows the contractor to ignore soil protection as compaction created by construction equipment and work is no longer an ongoing consideration. You want to see a golf contractor cringe and then start arguing, tell them you want to do a top soil job. Most youngsters in construction have no idea what that means.

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