[BCowan]

With the newer strands requiring 20-30% less water and the blades growing more vertical, when will GCAers include it in their 3 by 5 note cards? 

[Greg Chambers]

20-30% less water than what?

[BCowan]

than older bent strands

[Jon Wiggett]

What are the advantages of a vertically growing blade? I would have thought it would lead to needing to cut shorter thus increasing water usage.

Jon

[BCowan]

Jon,

   Ball sits up better in the fairway

[Joe Hancock]

Ben,

The only big problem with bentgrass on fairways and tees is more of a management problem than a grass problem.

Bentgrass needs grooming; verti-cutting, topdressing, aerification. That applies to all bentgrasses. Greens get topdressed enough, but rarely enough of the others. Fairways and tees need the same treatment to keep them healthy and firm, and that doesn't happen for a variety of reasons, but mainly it's just a lot of work.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Bent is hardier than poa on greens under ice as we found out in Toronto last year when clubs that had lots of poa in their greens had severe issues that took months to repair.

[Adam Clayman]

Bent grass is too sticky to get any love from a person who values bounce and roll. I would think the majority, around here, would love it.

[Howard Riefs]

What is a "3 by 5 note card" in this context?

[Brent Hutto]

Not entirely apropos the original question of the thread but tangentially responding to Adam's comment...

I've been playing golf for just over 20 years. Back when I started I played a public course with Common Bermuda wall to wall. The fairways, rough, tees and greens all the same grass that had been planted when the course was built in the 70's.


I remember the first time I made a golf trip to a more northern latitude and played on Bent greens. It was wonderfully grain-free and fast although the public courses I was playing tended to be seriously pockmarked with ball marks (today's, yesterday's, old ones almost healed but still bumpy) and also so wet that the ball tended to dig in and stop no matter how little spin and trajectory it might have.


So I disliked the wetness and the ball marks and  I definitely didn't care for the slower fairways (again, tending toward overwatered in summer time on heavily played public courses). But putting with speed and no grain was such fun on balance I enjoyed it.


Now fast forward 15 years or so. The courses I played now have hybrid Bermuda fairways and roughs and ultradwarf putting surfaces. Almost as much run as I used to get on our unwatered Common Bermuda fairways, firm greens on which a poorly struck shot can bounce clear over the green and then the putting, while not grain free, is fairly true and fast and the ball marks are minimal because of the firmness.


On the rare occasion I play "Bent Grass courses" now I'm usually a bit disappointed. Better maintained (i.e. private and high-$$$ resort) courses can be very nice to play on but I can never quite shake the feeling that the whole place needs to be firmed up and dried out a notch or two. Of course the one thing that remains as an advantage of cool-climate courses over Bermuda ones is that you can actually play a 6-iron shot out of rough with more than a 1-in-10 chance of getting the ball to the green!

[Brent Hutto]

Oops...

[Greg Chambers]

Where do you come up with the information that newer bents use 20-30% less water than older bents?

[BHoover]

I didn't notice that bent grass was going unloved on GCA. What did I miss?

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon,

   Ball sits up better in the fairway

Ben,

I had never thought about it in the fairways due to management intensity. Would not a more vertical growth lead to greater divot damage and a slower recovery. Not sure why it would but just a feeling I have gotten.

Jon

[BCowan]

Bent grass is too sticky to get any love from a person who values bounce and roll. I would think the majority, around here, would love it.

Adam,

    I find bent to very non sticky.  Of course improper care of it like in any situation will leave undesired results.  I value bounce and roll and find bent to play extremely firm, especially newer strands.  If it is kept too soft it is usually a result of a keeper trying to baby the poa in hot humid weather, which is understandable to an extent. 

[BCowan]

Ben,

The only big problem with bentgrass on fairways and tees is more of a management problem than a grass problem.

Bentgrass needs grooming; verti-cutting, topdressing, aerification. That applies to all bentgrasses. Greens get topdressed enough, but rarely enough of the others. Fairways and tees need the same treatment to keep them healthy and firm, and that doesn't happen for a variety of reasons, but mainly it's just a lot of work.

   I don't think an annual to bi-annual aeration is that high maintenance.  What grass type do you prefer?   

[Jeff Bergeron]

I play at two courses in the Detroit area. One chose Pure Distinction bent in 2012. It survived the brutal winter of 2013-14 unscathed. The other lost all their greens in that winter and regrassed to Pure Distinction in August, 2014.
Member satisfaction at both courses is 100%. In fact, two weeks ago we had a two time US Open champ in town for a visit and he commented the greens were the best he has seen outside of Augusta National.
Pure Distinction has a foot long root system and requires substantially less water. As poa comes in you shut off the water and the bent thrives and the poa dies. I played today in low 90s heat and the greens thrived No watering mid day.
Several other Detroit area courses are going to PD this fall. Inverness also went to it a year ago.
The new bent grasses are hearty, resilient and can be to cut to a stimp of 14 with no risk. Even in 90-100 degree weather.

[Joe Hancock]

Jeff,

Let's let PD get about 10 years of thatch production under it's belt and see how it's doing. For the record, I hope it performs as well 10 years in as it does 1 or 2 years in...but I've seen a lot of new grasses look great coming out of the gates only to succumb to the same pressures as the old varieties.

Ben,

One or two aerifications per year is the bare minimum, IMO. How often do the courses you know well go out and verti-cut fairways? It's an important cultural practice on bentgrass(other grasses too), yet it seems to be avoided by today's supers...especially areas other than greens.

I don't remember ever playing a bentgrass fairway that I thought was anything less than puffy. But I don't get much....

[Jeff Bergeron]

Joe:
I'm betting it will be great 10 years from now. One thing we know for certain is that's it's great three years in. It's easy to be negative isn't it?

[Joe Hancock]

Jeff,

Not negative, but we're 100 plus years into greenkeeping and we humans still find a way to mess it up...mostly from trying too hard.

[BCowan]

Joe,

   All one can do is set up a new grass strand for success.  Cutting tress down and getting courses back to core parkland courses is a big first step, but you know that.  You can't use over treed arbs with 80% poa as a barometer in which to gauge Bent.  I have a very good feeling about PD.  I am always the skeptic, which in life one should be. 

   What grass type do you prefer to Bent? 

[Joe Hancock]

Ben,

I don't disslike bentgrass, it just requires a level of maintenance that most supers don't have the luxury of performing.

I have seen bluegrass/ fescue blends utilized to create a great playing surface, but it lacks the definition between fairway and rough that the modern day golfer uses as a barometer of eliteness.

Likewise, I have seen fescues as the primary fairway grass to great acclaims, but it is hindered by traffic issues during the first few years of a courses life.

Bentgrass is hardy. If it has enough sun, it will out-compete everything in the cooler climates. But it makes thatch.....unless these new varieties are that much different.

Do you know of bentgrass fairways and tees somewhere that aren't thatchy? I'd love to learn more of how the super manages them. Make sure we are talking about turf that has been in place for at least 5 years.....

[BCowan]

Joe,

  I haven't played Diamond Springs and Thee Mines yet....  Anxious to broaden my horizons.  I have seen all bent maintained very well in smaller markets in Michigan (we can talk off board) with a very small budget. 

   Please tell me an all fescue public course in Michigan that does 20,000 rounds and can handle cart traffic?

Joe, I sold my dethatcher, should have kept it.  Wouldn't you say applications promote thatch build up?  The newer strands require less applications than older bents.  I will defer to keepers for more detailed explanations....

   It's time for a beer summit this summer!!!   

[Jon Wiggett]

I play at two courses in the Detroit area. One chose Pure Distinction bent in 2012. It survived the brutal winter of 2013-14 unscathed. The other lost all their greens in that winter and regrassed to Pure Distinction in August, 2014.
Member satisfaction at both courses is 100%. In fact, two weeks ago we had a two time US Open champ in town for a visit and he commented the greens were the best he has seen outside of Augusta National.
Pure Distinction has a foot long root system and requires substantially less water. As poa comes in you shut off the water and the bent thrives and the poa dies. I played today in low 90s heat and the greens thrived No watering mid day.
Several other Detroit area courses are going to PD this fall. Inverness also went to it a year ago.
The new bent grasses are hearty, resilient and can be to cut to a stimp of 14 with no risk. Even in 90-100 degree weather.

Jeff,

interesting read and I believe that deep rooting is one of the key factors. 12" is very good for bent on the greens and it would be hoped that with deeper rootzones the depth might be more i.e. 24" leading to 18" to 24" root depth. I am not sure I buy the faster speeds making the game harder and indeed would argue faster greens are much easier to putt on and hole out if you can adjust to the speed. It is one of the biggest cons in the modern game yet most are too gullible not to see it's deception. Do you know what is the putting surface like with Pure Distinction if it stimps at say 10?

Jon

[Buck Wolter]

I started playing at a course in Southern Minnesota this year that has bent fairways and greens. The course is bouncy and the greens are some of the firmest I've played and putt great-- damn near perfect. It has been a very cool year up until this week so I'm guessing it's been ideal for bent --does make it a little tough to transition to a weekend of tight fescue fairways.

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