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MCirba

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One of the first Reversible Courses in the U.S.
« on: July 15, 2015, 10:12:28 AM »
I recently played Westchester CC (Rye, NY), a Walter Travis design from the early 20s and was somewhat surprised to learn that the more famous West Course had originally been designed to be reversible.   I'm not sure from the history if in fact it was ever played this way, as some changes to the original routing were done (perhaps by Flynn) before 1930.

In any case, with the Open at St. Andrews this week and Tom Doak working on a Reversible course at Forest Dunes, I thought I'd post this image of the Travis drawing of Westchester and perhaps others can weigh in on whether such courses are generally feasible today, as well as their pros and cons.   Sorry for the scrolling but if I make it any smaller I don't think it will be very readable.   Thanks.

« Last Edit: July 15, 2015, 11:38:40 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Niall C

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Re: One of the first Reversible Courses
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2015, 11:31:52 AM »
smart arse comment deleted.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2015, 10:16:31 AM by Niall Carlton »

MCirba

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Re: One of the first Reversible Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2015, 11:39:01 AM »
Niall,

Great point.   I've changed the title instead.   Thanks!
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Bill Crane

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Re: One of the first Reversible Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2015, 01:28:53 PM »
Mike:
Ironic that William Flynn designed the reversible nine hole  Picantico Hills course at Kykuit - the Rockefeller estate near Tarrytown,NY.  I was fortunate to play the course about 14 years ago with a member of the family.   Ironic since Twomey and Flynn built Westchester, although did not do the original design.
Here are some of my comments to an earlier thread about Mr. Doak's project:

" I was fortunate enough to play Pocantico Hills, the truly private reversible golf course built by the Rockefellers and designed by the underappreciated William Flynn.  There are ten tees and sets of tees.   My host from the family characterized the course as "Flynn's best design".  It is located at Kykuit, the Rockefeller Estate in Sleepy Hollow, NY near Tarrytown and features commanding views of the Hudson River.  I believe there are tours of the property through the Historic Hudson Valley group.

While I am not a golf course architect it may be an interesting exercise to review the design.  The course is open off the tee in many places, but has typically interesting Flynn greens.  An aerial view of the property such as Bing maps will not reveal how hllly the property is, with the grade sloping away from the main estate mansion and the "playhouse" where the first tee is located.

There are also some interesting insights into Pocantico Hills in Wayne Morrison and Tom Paul's thorough bible of Flynn's work entitled "The Nature Faker" that may be insightful."

TRULY,

Wm Flynnfan
_________________________________________________________________
( s k a Wm Flynnfan }

Mike Bowen

Re: One of the first Reversible Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2015, 06:12:20 PM »
I truly believe the most interesting holes would be the ones with green sites where you play not from the opposite direction (180*), but from the side (80-130*).  An example of a green that I think would be incredible to play from a different angle is the 18th at Pacific Dunes.  It's obviously a very strong green site from the original direction of play, but from the back tee on the first hole is also a very interesting angle.


The birdhouse talks about angles a lot and this is essentially taking that idea to the extreme.  The ability to play to a green from almost the opposite direction and it still be interesting is perhaps a good measure of whether the green is great or not.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: One of the first Reversible Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2015, 07:54:51 PM »
I truly believe the most interesting holes would be the ones with green sites where you play not from the opposite direction (180*), but from the side (80-130*).  An example of a green that I think would be incredible to play from a different angle is the 18th at Pacific Dunes.  It's obviously a very strong green site from the original direction of play, but from the back tee on the first hole is also a very interesting angle.


Mike:


Indeed, that's what we've found at Forest Dunes.


Originally I was trying to keep the routing as simple as possible, changing direction as little as possible, because when you get to a corner, you can no longer use the same tees for both directions without having crossovers.  However, there was just enough topography at Forest Dunes that the second iteration of the routing plan, trying to utilize more of it, created more changes of direction; and I realized quickly that these would be to the benefit of the course, as there are vastly more types of greens that work for holes 90 degrees apart, than for holes 180 degrees apart.


I also soon realized that there was no need to combine tees; if a hole needs two separate sets of tees to be played in the two directions, that's fine, because each of them only has to take half the traffic, so it only needs to be half the size.




Mike:  Thanks for posting this plan, which I'd been told about but never seen until now.  It looks like Travis did not have to worry so much about crossovers and cart paths, as we've had to.  ;)

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One of the first Reversible Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2015, 09:02:46 PM »
Tom,

I'll IM you and get you a much larger image.  It's quite something.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Ronald Montesano

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Re: One of the first Reversible Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2015, 10:23:51 PM »
We should also follow Dan Hixson's progress at Silvies Valley Ranch in Oregon. His is a 36-hole, reversible plan, as I recall.

RM
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One of the first Reversible Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2015, 10:11:50 AM »
Bill Crane,

Good to hear from you.   The following is from a lurker;

Sadly, the Flynn reversible course on Rockefeller's Pocantico Hills is probably no more. It seems like maybe 5-6 years ago the Trust got Wayne and I up there to discuss what, if anything, should be kept of the course. I think the Rockefeller family transitioned the estate into some conservation trust. As I recall we recommended that perhaps they should keep some bunkers out there just to show what once was.

Ron,

Please feel free to post any info here on Hixson's project, thanks.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Sven Nilsen

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Re: One of the first Reversible Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2015, 01:34:13 PM »
Looks like Travis had the jump on this one.


March 1924 Golf Illustrated -



"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One of the first Reversible Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2015, 01:36:44 PM »
Mike:


The Annual Guides noted that the "north" course at Westchester was reversible, suggesting that it was played that way.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One of the first Reversible Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2015, 03:22:46 PM »
Sven,

Thanks for that additional information.   

As you know, Travis was pretty high on the whole idea of reversible courses and spent time trying to convince George Crump to work the reversibility concept into Pine Valley.

I've played East Potomac Park and it goes out to the point and back on each nine so that's probably still playable that way, sans tree growth over the years.

"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Bill Crane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One of the first Reversible Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2015, 05:09:50 PM »
Bill Crane,

Good to hear from you.   The following is from a lurker;

Sadly, the Flynn reversible course on Rockefeller's Pocantico Hills is probably no more. It seems like maybe 5-6 years ago the Trust got Wayne and I up there to discuss what, if anything, should be kept of the course. I think the Rockefeller family transitioned the estate into some conservation trust. As I recall we recommended that perhaps they should keep some bunkers out there just to show what once was.

\
Guys:
I would say he is " THE Lurker ".
Wayne had mentioned to me that Picantico Hills is basically not being maintained.  Sorry to hear, it was really an interesting place and experience.   My host was waving hello to " Aunt Happy " on about the 12th hole.
Ironic also- I was just reading THE Lurkers monthly interviews from a few years ago on the train.
Wm Flynnfan
_________________________________________________________________
( s k a Wm Flynnfan }

Garland Bayley

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Re: One of the first Reversible Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2015, 05:24:10 PM »
We should also follow Dan Hixson's progress at Silvies Valley Ranch in Oregon. His is a 36-hole, reversible plan, as I recall.

RM


27 greens. Some of the holes reversible so that there will be a unique 18 to play on each of two successive days.

See at http://silviesvalleyranch.com/golf.php
« Last Edit: July 16, 2015, 05:26:25 PM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Bret Lawrence

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Re: One of the first Reversible Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2015, 09:45:50 AM »
Mike,


I came across an old aerial of East Potomac GC dated 1935



If you search the image on loc.gov it will show up a little clearer.


Bret

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One of the first Reversible Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2015, 11:13:58 AM »
Bret,

That's an amazing photo, thanks for sharing.   The bunkering looks to be stellar, and dare I say it almost looks St. Andrews-esque. 

I'm hopeful that Ed Homesy of the Travis Society is looking in on this thread.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

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