[Pat_McGuire]

Here are some pictures of Dakota Dunes, a new course located just south of Saskatoon, Sask. (Canada).  The designer is Wayne Carleton who is located in Vancouver BC and is an associate of Graham Cooke.

Wayne also designed Point Roberts, located just south of Vancouver, and Sun Rivers, which is in Kamloops BC.  They are both very highly regarded courses in this area.

I can't wait to play it.

[Andrew_Roberts]

Thank you for posting these Pat.

The piece of land looks phenomenal.  But does it seem like that every hole funnels in.  

The bunkers also look a little disapointing considering the sites potential.  But anything would.

But the setting looks superb and like seeing no paved cart paths.  That is great to see.

It has to be worth seeing.

[Evan_Green]

That does look like quite a good course- but I too concur the bunkers look benign- as is the way with so many modern designs

[Tommy_Naccarato]

The tall brown native grass certainly adds a lot to the dramatics, but I'm thinking a lot about Sandpines while looking at it. Don't get me wrong, This looks somewhat better then Sandpines, but there is, just like Andrew has noted, a lot of funneling or containment--a horrible word that containment.

You got some grat bunkering going around and back of the greens of the third and fourth images, but those circular pots make me think that Ted Robinson was a source of inspiration.

I'm sure it is a deal for the location.

[Scott_Burroughs]

The labels for the pics by Pat above are:

#12 fairway, #12 tee, #14 green, #15 green, #18 green, #3 green, #6 green



The development itself is very Barona/Apache Stronghold in
nature in that this is part of a resort & casino in the making.  
It was funded in fact by three tribes, Whitecap Dakota First
Nation, Muskeg Cree Nation, and Lac La Ronge Indian Band.

The course is slated to open in the spring, though based on
the 6th pic above, people seem to be playing it, so maybe it
opened early.

Regarding the pics above, I swear I see paved cart paths in
the 6th pic down - you can see the brown dirt paths in the
foreground and right, but the off-white paved paths are left
of the green (where the 2 carts are!  ) and go behind the
green.

Here are some more pics, obviously taken at a different
time, and earlier in the grow-in:

#2 green (this remind anyone of #16 at Pac Dunes?):


#2 waste bunker:


#5 green:


#7 fairway:


#7 green:

[RJ_Daley]

Gentlemen, I'm somewhat dismayed at the first impression citique I am hearing from some of you.  Tommy, what the heck are you talking about in comparing this to Sandpines?
 Funneling and pot bunkers?  What do you think many of the bunkers looked like at Wild Horse upon opening?  I have pictures of some of the fairway bunkers from the first year that aren't really that impressive as they are now with their lips and internal sodded islands now mature with native grasses.  Look at the pictures of the Wild Horse write up in My Home Course.  Many of them were taken the first year and they aren't nearly so impressive as you find them now.  Both Sand Hills and Wild Horse have many fairways and greens that funnel.  And, negatively commenting about cart paths?  Fellows, both Sand Hills and Wild Horse not only have cart paths as prominently seen from various tees and going around green sites, but nearly all of the folks that play those courses, TAKE CARTS!!!

Admittedly, from the first batch of pictures the last one and third to last one shows rather stark bunkers greenside that has no lip or native which is in contrast with the remarkable spill out sand barrens behind that green.  But, do you know how easy it is to rip out some prairie sod and stack it for a hairy lip.  I remember that pot on 13 at Rustic Canyon being a small bathtub of sand with some unproportionate lip of rough around it.  It serves a purpose, and I trust that it evolved since I saw it brand new.  I will observe that in these pictures, I see no cut walkout paths from tees.  Wild Horse didn't have them either upon opening.  

But look at those heaves and rolls on fairways and greens following the land.  Anyone that pooh poohs this from the pictures is mentally eliminating a POTENTIAL gem of a golf course that looks nicely laid upon the land it resides in.

You fellows want GCA to have an effect on the golf design industry, and here Graham Cooke's firm (not known for minimalist, lay of the land, courses) has presented an offering that seems to incorporate just that!  Come on guys, what are you really talking about? I want to know haw much this cost to build.  I'm guessing less than 2 million.  What are the green fees?

I'm looking up Sasskatoon as we speak!

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

Would you know how far the course is located from Regina (drive time and mileage)?

Also would like to know total yardage and if cr and slope have been done to date.

Thanks ...

[RJ_Daley]

I found a website from Canada that informs the course cost $4million.  I am assuming it is in Canada $ at conversion rate of .73 comes in at about 2.9million US.  Not bad and should command a green fee under $40.  If it is like the other Indian Casino offerings, it will likely have stay and play packages, and pricing incentives to bring the suckers in.  I have more chance of winning money on bets on the golf course than in the casino, even if I play Barney

I once heard a hockey player from there say that most of Saskatchen is so flat, you can see your dog run away for days.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Matt,

The course is 26km south of Saskatoon.

[Pat_McGuire]

Matt, it's about 260 km from Regina to Saskatoon.  It would take about 3 1/2 hrs all tolled unless you drive like I do.

Not sure about course rating or slope.

[Forrest Richardson]

Pat,

Thanks for posting Carleton's latest work. I'm of the feeling that a few posts here are critical for the sake of being critical.

Please understand, for instance, that Tommy's "circular" bunkers comment is a result of a childhood accident wherein his head was duct-taped to a lava lamp for three days while he was forced to listen to to audio recordings of Ted Robinson and Ben Crenshaw on a fishing trip.

This is a fine looking course and one with some great design and strategy, at least from the photos. It appears minimalist in approach, which seems like it sums up the overall intent.

Pat...had you somehow been able to cloak the true identity of this course and convince some contributors here that it might have been a surprise project in a remote corner of Europe created by one of "their boys", it would have been interesting to read the posts.

[RJ_Daley]

Forrest, right on!

[Pat_McGuire]

Thanks Forrest.

It would be really interesting to hear architects discuss these pictures in terms of containment/funneling vs wind erosion, and bunker shaping/artistry vs bunker maintenance costs.

[RJ_Daley]

And, let us not overlook that this course is 9 months or more from opening!  I remember our group outting at Kingsley Club, when it was at about the same stage of grow-in.  And, in some respects, these pictures compare very well to the pics I took at KC at that same stage.  What do you think the objectionable starker green side bunkers might look like next June?  That is simply a maintenance meld question.  Some of you fellows are making Pat Mucci's constant admonishments about bias and not taking too much negativity from pictures seem like a great cause, which I believe is right only to a certain degree.  I think I can spot the uninspired and artificial nature from the Sandpines pictures.  By the same token, I thin you'd have to be pretty unfamiliar with the genre of prairie links golf not to see some really good stuff in the above pics.  I don't even know who Carlton is.  So, I can't be bias about him.  But, right now, the only piece of info I would still seek before I get even more excited about this course is to see the routing.  It will go up or down in my opinion depending on walkability and variety of cardinal directions relative to wind patterns.

[Matt_Ward]

Nothing like commentary on how a course "looks" before one even plays it.

[Forrest Richardson]

Matt,

For the record, many millions more people enjoy golf courses than those who play them — or even play the game.

I believe commenting on a golf course can take place before playing it, and that these comments have significant value. I will always like to visit a course, smell the air, share in the on-site experience, but this is not always practical.

I also enjoy discussing movies when I've only seen the previews. And — enjoy discussing them again once I've seen the real thing.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Pat,
Great to see the post. The course is important for Canada as golf in the prairies is non-existant at the highest levels.

Looks like it will interesting, it will be interesting to see the contrast once the grow-in is complete. Hopefully the prairie winter isn't too hard on the course.

With regards to the bunkering, there is certainly a different feel to some of them, but perhaps fescue, erosion - I assume the wind will play a role - will create more of a synergy.

Suddenly those milk routes on flights to Vancouver do not seem so bad, ha!

[Michael Dugger]

Nothing like commentary on how a course "looks" before one even plays it.

Very snide

What's the point of posting pictures then?  What's the point?

[moth]

I think the course looks great and nothing like the photos I have seen of Sand Pines. Show me a containment mound??

I echo R J Daleys comments - here is a firm (Graham Cooke) not exactly noted for its minamalist tendancies doing some rather minamalistic work on a fine looking piece of land (i.e. a piece of land where your job is not to screw it up). You could say the same of Marsh's effort in South Dakota. You should all be celebrating how these firms work is evolving given the right conditions.  

A couple of those photos by Scott would not have looked out of place at Pacific Dunes.

[Matt_Ward]

A picture may indicate plenty of things but why should people make any defintiive statement until they actually play it. Nothing like pulling the horse BEFORE the cart.

Forrest: I seen many previews for movies --- guess what? The actual movie can be better or worse than that trailer shown to the public.

[Forrest Richardson]

Matt,

I understand your position. I also dare you to comment on what you see.

[Tom_Doak]

Some really cool looking holes there.  I'd say it's closer to Pacific Dunes than to Sandpines.

Mike Keiser told me a couple of years ago he had gone to look at a project in Saskatchewan ... I'm guessing this is the same land.  I'm disappointed that I never got to look at the job, but I guess we can't win them all.  I have not heard Mr. Carlton's name before but I expect I will again after this.

Just one question ... are there enough people to support a golf course 26 km south of Saskatoon?

[Mike Benham]

Just one question ... are there enough people to support a golf course 26 km south of Saskatoon?

If the $ 2.6m (USD) is correct, even with a shorten season, then maybe yes ...

[Neal_Meagher]

All of this back and forth over judging a course waaaaaaay before its opening brings up an interesting point, I think.

First of all, I like the idea of throwing out these kind of pics as they show the genesis of a course, much in the way that the Anthology discs showed the processes the Beatles went through as they fleshed out their songs.  Ok, maybe a stretch.

But, the vitriole over the relative merits of a course not even fully grown in is precisely the reason why the owners of The Institute here in NorCal have not granted the first picture yet of a course that was at the same place this one is now, back in 1999.  They know that there is a court of public opinion.

More importantly in this industry, you only get one chance to make a first impression, and even though no one here would admit it, it is difficult to get beyond that first opinion.  Especially if one does not get back to check on a place for a period of months or years.

As for The Institute, I don't know when they will feel that their course is "ready", but it shouldn't be much longer.  It just shows that we have somehow replaced an understanding of the fact that golf courses are living and growing entities that should improve and evolve over time, to a PRODUCT that needs to be 100% on opening day.  Why is that?

[Brad Klein]

Hey Tom, are there enough people 220 miles southwest of Portland, Oregon to support three resort courses in the middle of nowhere along the coast?

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