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Niall C

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The value of having a nice view (now fixed)
« on: July 10, 2015, 07:03:01 AM »
In a recent thread there was a discussion on the worth of views and whether it should be considered as part of the architecture of the course.

Taking a slightly different tack, I’d ask what importance panoramic or extensive views play in judging a course and whether that changes over time from the first play to subsequent plays ? I’m basically questioning whether as you get familiar with a course, and particularly when you play it on a regular basis, does the value of the view(s) diminish, in that it just becomes part of the background and not something you really notice during a game ? Personally I think it does.


Taking that further, should we really be judging a course for rating purposes on the basis of first play or should we reserve judgement until properly familiar with a course ? After all did MacKenzie or Old Tom not say something along the lines of needing to play a good course more than once to appreciate it.
 
Thoughts ?
 
Niall 
« Last Edit: July 10, 2015, 08:12:31 AM by Niall Carlton »

BCrosby

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Re: The value of having a nice view
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2015, 07:44:47 AM »
Niall - Something happened to the size of the font of your post. Please embiggen.


BTW, fonts on my posts have sometimes changed without warning. Even within a sentence. It would be great if that could be fixed. 



Bob

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The value of having a nice view
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2015, 08:08:02 AM »
As I have gotten older I have found views getting better the more I see them. After recently spending time and reading the opinions of young people I would prefer no one under 50 rate courses. Youngens can't see past their own ass, cute as it may be.  I mean really?!, if I go to Bandon for the third time are the views gonna be worse...

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The value of having a nice view (now fixed)
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2015, 08:47:21 AM »
Massively important I think. I would say golf with near views of pylons, power stations/industrial units, motorways all maybe knock (sort of) 5 Doak points off before you start. I suppose the distance between the golf and the eyesore would be on a sliding scale.
Conversely views out to sea, great infinity landscaping, great dunescapes, rugged countryside all add.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The value of having a nice view (now fixed)
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2015, 09:41:23 AM »
Adrian


My point is that over time the view begins to pale to the repeat golfer and the interest in the actual playing area increases (assuming it's a good design) therefore should courses be judged on a first look/one play basis ?


What brought this to mind is how visitors tend to rate courses differently to locals. Now no doubt both are susceptible to group think eg. visiting golfer makes a bee-line to Cruden Bay/Dornoch/North Berwick because they have been told these are the best courses by friends, they play them and then go home and tell their other pals these are the best courses even though they maybe haven't played any others over here. It kind of becomes self-perpetuating.


Equally, local golfers may be influenced by other reasons but overall I'd suggest that they would have a better handle on best courses. Just a thought.


Niall

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The value of having a nice view (now fixed)
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2015, 09:53:23 AM »
A couple of other aspects I'd like mention -


Noise vrs tranquility - fine courses but in noisy areas are not so enjoyable
Smell - played a course adjacent and downwind of a pig farm one. Never went back!
Housing - not necessarily adjacent but close enough for kids to be roaming


Atb

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The value of having a nice view (now fixed)
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2015, 10:05:39 AM »
A couple of other aspects I'd like mention -

Noise vrs tranquility - fine courses but in noisy areas are not so enjoyable
Smell - played a course adjacent and downwind of a pig farm one. Never went back!
Housing - not necessarily adjacent but close enough for kids to be roaming



Thomas:


Yes, all these would be factors for me if I was developing a course ... but not so much if I'm hired to design one, since there's nothing an architect can do about any of them.


I do think these extraneous factors [including views] count too much in all the ranking lists.  It's easy to see the bias not only in favor of seaside courses, but of golf-only clubs with no real estate.  Ironically, failed real estate developments have higher-ranked courses, because there aren't so many homes about.

I was talking to Ran about Mid Ocean the other day, and he basically dismissed it as a top-100 contender because of the house that's too close to play on the 3rd hole!  That might be the ultimate "first world problem"!


One of the best compliments I ever got on my work was from Ron Whitten, who happened to visit Pacific Dunes for the first time when it was very foggy.  He said he was sure it was a great course because he couldn't see any of the views, and it was still great.  But that just meant he was able to put his blinders on and look at the golf holes.  It's another thing altogether to DISMISS a course for what's outside of it.

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The value of having a nice view (now fixed)
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2015, 10:14:46 AM »

I was talking to Ran about Mid Ocean the other day, and he basically dismissed it as a top-100 contender because of the house that's too close to play on the 3rd hole!  That might be the ultimate "first world problem"!



Wow, I feel like that is pretty pretentious! Sorry Ran!  ???
Also, especially since the very course Ran is involved with in Cape Breton built their clubhouse about 20 feet left of the 18th green! I get that a clubhouse is part of the "golf experience", but still! For the record, I think the clubhouse next to the green is pretty cool, but I do worry about those windows and the people on the patio!  ;)
« Last Edit: July 10, 2015, 10:16:42 AM by matt kardash »
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The value of having a nice view (now fixed)
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2015, 10:39:28 AM »
A couple of other aspects I'd like mention -


Noise vrs tranquility - fine courses but in noisy areas are not so enjoyable
Smell - played a course adjacent and downwind of a pig farm one. Never went back!
Housing - not necessarily adjacent but close enough for kids to be roaming


Atb


ATB


That's a fair point. It's never really bothered me but I suspect if the RAF ever do leave Lossiemouth then Old Moray might at last get the credit I for one think it deserves.


Niall

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The value of having a nice view (now fixed)
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2015, 10:47:30 AM »
Each time I stand on the 7th tee at Conwy with its wonderful sea views i say that, whatever the state of my golf, I have come especially to stand on that tee.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The value of having a nice view (now fixed)
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2015, 11:04:05 AM »
Ah but Mark, how often do you play there ? Do you think you would feel quite that way if you played the course twice a week ?


Niall

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The value of having a nice view (now fixed)
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2015, 11:05:30 AM »
A couple of other aspects I'd like mention -


Noise vrs tranquility - fine courses but in noisy areas are not so enjoyable
Smell - played a course adjacent and downwind of a pig farm one. Never went back!
Housing - not necessarily adjacent but close enough for kids to be roaming


Atb


Interestingly enough, I hate green side fans more for their noise than how they look.

Frank Kim

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The value of having a nice view (now fixed)
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2015, 11:08:56 AM »
When I joined the Cliffs at Glassy in 1995,  I definitely joined because of the views from 3,000 feet up.  At that time I knew little about architecture.  After many years of playing there and learning more about architecture, the reason I love that course is more the design including the awesome greens and less the views.  But the first time I take a guests there, they are amazed at the views.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The value of having a nice view (now fixed)
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2015, 11:47:35 AM »
Views are very important to a lot of folks, as discussed here previously.  Put Arcadia Bluffs in a cornfield and try charging $185 or getting a top 50 ranking... For those who haven't read it, or for those who may want to reread it, see the Mike Nuzzo article below on Pretty, Challenging or Fun courses.  One of the best pieces I've read on the subject:

http://mnuzzo.com/pdf/GAV5.pdf



Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The value of having a nice view (now fixed)
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2015, 12:01:20 PM »
Nial - There is no doubt that even you were sleeping with Cindy Crawford every night it would get boring eventually. :O)
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The value of having a nice view (now fixed)
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2015, 12:46:04 PM »
Nial - There is no doubt that even you were sleeping with Cindy Crawford every night it would get boring eventually. :O)


Views don't have opinions.

Mark Pavy

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Re: The value of having a nice view (now fixed)
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2015, 02:23:51 PM »
Good question Niall. Only last night I was pondering something similar. If you had the choice of playing any course in the world with anyone , what course would it be and who would the other three players be? ie dream course and dream partners. Now, what about if it was your LAST ever game of golf (a meteor is going to strike the planet and life will cease to exist) where would that be and with whom?

I think one of the reasons why we all enjoy golf architecture, is because the golf course environment removes us from the confines of our 4 walls. The sense of space, the feelings and thoughts that are evoked, maybe provide us humans with some sort of reality check. Think along the lines of staring at the stars.

The initial experience of a "view" is probably different to the continual experience of the space that affords the view.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2015, 02:52:53 PM by Mark Pavy »

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: The value of having a nice view (now fixed)
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2015, 02:55:16 PM »
Does Royal St George's have good views?

I just played it for the first time today and in the honeymoon haze, I think it might just be the greatest course in the world.

My eyes were on the internal undulation and the green contouring. I hardly looked up to see what else was around. Fantastic

Joe Zucker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The value of having a nice view (now fixed)
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2015, 03:25:22 PM »
I've been thinking about this question for a few hours and I am struggling with the answer.  My first thought was that I don't care too much for views that are not actively part of the hole being played.  The 18th at Pebble is an example, while nice to look to your left off the tee straight out into the Pacific, I'm not hitting my ball there.  The view down the coastline towards the green is in my shot and much more appealing to me.  When the view is integral to the shot, it can really enhance the hole, rather than just being a photo opportunity.

On the other hand, I absolutely loved walking up the 18th at the Old Course precisely because it was in the town with buildings on my right and the "view" in this case has no impact on the architecture.  So I guess I contradict myself.  As an American, playing golf in a town was so foreign to me that this really stood out and I loved it.  An ocean view or vista off of a mountain is beautiful, but it can seem somewhat generic when it is not tied into the artistry of the golf hole.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The value of having a nice view (now fixed)
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2015, 03:30:05 PM »
Niall,

there is no doubt in my mind that if you are playing a course regularly the views cannot compensate for poor GCA and a boring course. Aesthetics are very important for promotion or one time play courses and so is in my opinion way over rated as it is selling perception over substance.

There are certain things such as constant loud noise or offensive smells that can make even the most interesting course unappealing but views would not be amongst these things.

Jon

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The value of having a nice view (now fixed)
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2015, 05:18:32 PM »
Good question Niall. Only last night I was pondering something similar. If you had the choice of playing any course in the world with anyone , what course would it be and who would the other three players be? ie dream course and dream partners. Now, what about if it was your LAST ever game of golf (a meteor is going to strike the planet and life will cease to exist) where would that be and with whom?

I think one of the reasons why we all enjoy golf architecture, is because the golf course environment removes us from the confines of our 4 walls. The sense of space, the feelings and thoughts that are evoked, maybe provide us humans with some sort of reality check. Think along the lines of staring at the stars.

The initial experience of a "view" is probably different to the continual experience of the space that affords the view.

Thank goodness someone mentioned feelings.

Well reasoned, for whatever reasons someone golfs.

It's possible architects have been fooling the traveling golfer with inspiring vistas, instead of thoughtful compelling design for decades.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The value of having a nice view (now fixed)
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2015, 05:55:15 AM »
OK, some have answered the first question but what about the second, should we rate courses based on one play ?


Niall

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The value of having a nice view (now fixed)
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2015, 11:04:39 AM »
No thoughts ?


Right, let me expand slightly. If most of the raters only visit a course once and give it a rating, and they are immediately struck by the views, and rate the higher course accordingly doesn't that suggest that courses with nice views will generally get rated higher than better courses with not so nice views ? That being the case, developers then put a premium on views and the actual design suffers ?


Niall

John Kavanaugh

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Re: The value of having a nice view (now fixed)
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2015, 11:23:50 AM »
Niall,


For those who rank courses I think it should be after only one play, at most.  Seriously, you've got to go with that gut feeling.  It's right more often than wrong.


Considering that most of us join a course after one play shouldn't a guy be able to rank one as well.  On that note I have joined most of the courses where I am a member without playing it at all.  I pre-rank courses I am going to take the time to visit using the same method.  My pre-rank and rank rarely varies.

Joe Zucker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The value of having a nice view (now fixed)
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2015, 12:01:15 PM »
I'm definitely on the other side of the coin from John.  Ideally, with all the time in the world, we would rate courses after a dozen rounds with different pin locations and weather conditions.  I find it very difficult to appreciate a course's greens after one play.  I most likely won't see all of the character that surrounds a green and makes recovery shots interesting and tough.  On a particularly strategic hole, I may be able to "analyze" my way to the best route, but that is not the same as playing the hole different ways and seeing how each path works.  Good golf courses are infinitely complicated and challenging in ways that are hidden on the first few rounds (probably even more).

That being said, I partially agree with John that you can usually tell if a courses is bad, OK, good, or great after the first round.  But with courses worth rating, we are really splitting hairs anyways and for me it takes many rounds to see this.  We all have been driving home from work one day when we see a house/store/sign we had never noticed before even though it has been there every day.  Good courses have features we won't notice for years.

Tying back to Niall's question, players will probably notice the view the first time around and this will skew their impression of the course if the point is to only rate the course.  But if we are rating the "experience" it may not be a bad thing.  The tricky part might be that the "experience" is different for different people and the types of golf courses.  If we are truly trying to identify the best courses strictly in terms if golfing, I agree with the intimation in Niall's question that they would be overrated.

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