[BCowan]

This is turning into one of those Moral builder threads.  It's not like they received Tupelo honey. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Ben,


I'm not making a moral judgement, my comments are a call back to a thread where I can quote Doak saying "The fact that several of these clubs have paid big money to host a tournament as an excuse to pay quite a few panelists to travel there, just before their remarkable climbs up the list, is too big of a coincidence for my senses to believe."

No worries, it's the way everyone does business, not just a few Asian courses that people haven't seen and don't believe should be on a given list.

[jeffwarne]

c'mon John
You should know you can get more with sugar (or honey) than you can with spice.

[John Kavanaugh]

When I start reading tweets like this from a Digest rater, "It's like Doak took everything from his recent courses, put it in a blender, turned the dial up to 11 and voila.", all I can think is I got to get me some of that sugar!!!

[Greg Tallman]

Ben,


I'm not making a moral judgement, my comments are a call back to a thread where I can quote Doak saying "The fact that several of these clubs have paid big money to host a tournament as an excuse to pay quite a few panelists to travel there, just before their remarkable climbs up the list, is too big of a coincidence for my senses to believe."

No worries, it's the way everyone does business, not just a few Asian courses that people haven't seen and don't believe should be on a given list.

If you can't beat 'em...

[Kalen Braley]

c'mon John
You should know you can get more with sugar (or honey) than you can with spice.

Jeff,

I think the quote is "you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar"

Either way I'm just sitting back and watching the show... 

[Tom_Doak]

I'm not making a moral judgement, my comments are a call back to a thread where I can quote Doak saying "The fact that several of these clubs have paid big money to host a tournament as an excuse to pay quite a few panelists to travel there, just before their remarkable climbs up the list, is too big of a coincidence for my senses to believe."

No worries, it's the way everyone does business, not just a few Asian courses that people haven't seen and don't believe should be on a given list.

John:


I was trying to think why you're so interested in this topic, when I've always done my best to run the Renaissance Cup on the up and up, and get all participants [including panelists] to pay their own way.


And then I remembered that whose objectivity I called into question with your quoted post.


Do you really want to go back there?  I suspect that Ran, Greg T, and several other people who deal directly with the GOLF Magazine ratings would prefer we didn't, but I've got nothing to hide. 


Nobody paid anyone's expenses to attend the Renaissance Cup [apart from me paying for my associates to go back], and no one ever has.  Yes, the event is promotional in nature; the main idea was to get people to come and play the course two or three times, instead of the one-and-done visits so many panelist types make.  I've always figured it serves my courses better if people can actually start to understand them.


As I recall, the possibility of some panelists getting their expenses paid to Tara Iti was brought up by someone just a few days before I made that post you quoted above.  I talked the client out of doing that, for the very same reason you objected vehemently to the idea of raters getting favorable treatment [and prices] at a GCA event ... it would have been insulting to everyone else who paid their own way.

[Michael Goldstein]

Have just opened this thread.  Must say, it is pretty sad that it has descended to this.


Tom, thank you and Mr Kayne for building a great course in NZ and for having me at the event.


The analysis and description of Tara Iti deserves far more than the five minutes I can give this fortnight. My opinions of the course in totality and each of the 18 holes are evolving the more time I spend on the property - it is not a straight forward golf course to understand.  I look forward to contributing my opinions to this site more thoroughly in the next couple of weeks.   


PS: it was great to meet/see many of you in New Zealand recently, I hope you enjoyed your time here!   

[Keith OHalloran]

I'm not making a moral judgement, my comments are a call back to a thread where I can quote Doak saying "The fact that several of these clubs have paid big money to host a tournament as an excuse to pay quite a few panelists to travel there, just before their remarkable climbs up the list, is too big of a coincidence for my senses to believe."

No worries, it's the way everyone does business, not just a few Asian courses that people haven't seen and don't believe should be on a given list.

John:


I was trying to think why you're so interested in this topic, when I've always done my best to run the Renaissance Cup on the up and up, and get all participants [including panelists] to pay their own way.


And then I remembered that whose objectivity I called into question with your quoted post.


Do you really want to go back there?  I suspect that Ran, Greg T, and several other people who deal directly with the GOLF Magazine ratings would prefer we didn't, but I've got nothing to hide. 


Nobody paid anyone's expenses to attend the Renaissance Cup [apart from me paying for my associates to go back], and no one ever has.  Yes, the event is promotional in nature; the main idea was to get people to come and play the course two or three times, instead of the one-and-done visits so many panelist types make.  I've always figured it serves my courses better if people can actually start to understand them.


As I recall, the possibility of some panelists getting their expenses paid to Tara Iti was brought up by someone just a few days before I made that post you quoted above.  I talked the client out of doing that, for the very same reason you objected vehemently to the idea of raters getting favorable treatment [and prices] at a GCA event ... it would have been insulting to everyone else who paid their own way.

In general, who gets invited to a Ren Cup? What is the criteria?

[Garland Bayley]

In general, who gets invited to a Ren Cup? What is the criteria?

If you have to ask, you won't be invited. 

[Colin Macqueen]

Keith,
I am going to have a guess of an answer to the question you ask regarding invitees to a Renaissance Cup.


I suspect Tom asks his associates, probably friends, who contributed to the construction of the course. His close friends in the golf course architecture business. His friends in the golf course architecture critique business. Chaps in the vicinity (NZ and Oz are a long way away from lotsa places!) whose company he suspects would be entertaining who are already friends or might become friends.  The owners and financiers who have probably become friends.


In short his friends or would be friends. it sounds like a great fun way to have your courses seen, appreciated and critiqued. Great golf, camaraderie and I suspect fine wine, cheeses and dining if I know these Kiwis!


Tom has every right to jump all over me for second guessing his modus operandi in this regard but I will live with that!!


Cheers Colin

[Simon Holt]

I was lucky enough to play in the event and be blown away by the course and the tasteful touches off it.  I say touches since there is nothing ostentatious with the attention to every detail more than evident.  Nothing has been overlooked and exudes class.  The very same can be said of the shaping on the course; a quite breathtaking level of detail to walkways, teeing grounds and the waste areas.  Perfection.


It is hard to take any of that cost BS seriously and I'm hoping JK is just pulling our chains.  The social cost is the hard time and genuine guilt of being that far away from family for 2 weeks to make the journey worthwhile, the financial cost....waste your own time adding up flights from Scotland, hire car, hotels etc for two weeks and see if it was a "free" trip.  Or just switch your brain on. 


I'm frustrated typing that as there is no need to justify attending or who Tom invites.  Its a very laid back gathering of kindred spirits with zero pretence. 


Te Arai is firstly one of the most beautiful places I have visited, let alone the golf course at Tara Iti.  Do not let that suggest that the scenery covers any cracks in design; the course flows beautifully and is a great walk.  Fun, variety, strategy and options are there in abundance.  If you dislike undulations and short grass then its not for you but if you love firm conditions and incredibly well conceived green complexes then you need to beat a trail this wonderful, wonderful golf course.


There are not many courses that I have played in the GOLF World top 20 that I would play over Tara Iti.  Its not my scene but if they could roll the place up, I would smoke it.

[Keith OHalloran]

Simon, I am not sure if your "justifying who is invited" quote was directed at my question, but if so it is mis guided. I was asking a genuine question. I was interested to know who goes to a Ren Cup. It sounds like a great experience and a cool way to be involved in a great course from the opening.

[Simon Holt]

Not at all Keith.  I can't even remember your post specifically. 


I quickly scan the threads and get a general feel.  My overall feeling was that this one went down a route all too common with GCA of late which is why I hardly ever post.  Instead of celebrating how good a course is and that being enough, my feeling was that some felt that opinions may have been swayed by the quality of the shrimp tacos....which were excellent but don't blind me to good/bad golf courses.

[John Kavanaugh]

Simon,


I simply took Doak's own words from the following thread concerning junkets and the ranking of golf courses. When I see an American that has never been to Bandon say that another course built on the ocean in Oceania is top 25 in the world it peaks my interest.  Now you are saying it is top 20. I'm sure more than anything it is a great course, as almost all in Oceania are. The Ren Cup is the premier event for people who love architecture of the Doak variety. I have been invited in the past and my brother has even attended. I am sure it is above board and conducted under the strictest of ranking ethical guidelines. I only question how it is any different that the junkets Doak himself calls into question. I host raters at clubs I love all the time, most of us do, you just can't say one is more ethical than the other.





http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,61749.0.html

[Tom_Doak]

Keith,
I am going to have a guess of an answer to the question you ask regarding invitees to a Renaissance Cup.


I suspect Tom asks his associates, probably friends, who contributed to the construction of the course. His close friends in the golf course architecture business. His friends in the golf course architecture critique business. Chaps in the vicinity (NZ and Oz are a long way away from lotsa places!) whose company he suspects would be entertaining who are already friends or might become friends.  The owners and financiers who have probably become friends.


In short his friends or would be friends. it sounds like a great fun way to have your courses seen, appreciated and critiqued. Great golf, camaraderie and I suspect fine wine, cheeses and dining if I know these Kiwis!


Tom has every right to jump all over me for second guessing his modus operandi in this regard but I will live with that!!

Pretty good guess, Colin.


I've usually invited a handful of people from Golf Club Atlas each year, too, based in part on proximity to the venue ... sometimes people I know well, sometimes people I'd like to meet.  And some of the invited guests bring their own partner, so we get to meet new people, too.

[Tom_Doak]

I only question how it is any different that the junkets Doak himself calls into question. I host raters at clubs I love all the time, most of us do, you just can't say one is more ethical than the other.

John:


I consider a line to be crossed when someone starts paying people's business-class airfares and putting them up in 5-star hotels as part of the invitation.

[BCowan]

Tom,

  Little OT, did you ever have Renaissance Cup at Common Ground? 

[Greg Tallman]

Inviting the right people to an event on their own dime - SMART

Spending 100s of thousands on fees, flights, hotels, dining & booze - SHADY

Who's Marshall Mathers and who's Eminem?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

  Little OT, did you ever have Renaissance Cup at Common Ground?

Yes, we played there the year after the course opened.


We have played it on most of my new courses ... though it's never been to Riverfront, Quail Crossing, The Rawls Course, Aetna Springs, Barnbougle Dunes, St. Andrews Beach, or Medinah #1, as other new projects took precedence at the time. 


In 23 events, the only venues we've played twice were High Pointe [along with Black Forest the second time], Stonewall [the Old Course, along with the North course the second time], and The Renaissance Club [before and after the new holes].

[John Kavanaugh]

I only question how it is any different that the junkets Doak himself calls into question. I host raters at clubs I love all the time, most of us do, you just can't say one is more ethical than the other.

John:


I consider a line to be crossed when someone starts paying people's business-class airfares and putting them up in 5-star hotels as part of the invitation.

I love free stuff a much as anyone, but nothing is like having someone you respect sit down with you at dinner and value your opinion.  It has only happened to me a couple of times in my life and those are the days I will never forget. That is the hidden value of being a rater, suddenly, for no good reason, people at any given golf course treat you like you matter. When that happens what you pay or where you stay goes out the window. For that reason, I see the line crossed at the invitation.


That being said, it's a line that needs to be crossed to do business, and to do business well is a beautiful thing to see.

[Simon Holt]

Hi John,


Its all good but for the avoidance of any doubt, I didn't mean it should be top 20 but rather I would personally choose to play there above any in the current GOLF world top 20 that I have played.


I suppose that is the nice thing about Tom's scale in that the courses don't have to be ranked one after the other but rather in groupings.  Tara Iti would be up with the best courses I have played, including lots of Doak 10s.


Fun, clever golf with a beautiful walk on the water is what I was brought up on so Tara Iti was always going to be a winner with me.  Others like trees.


I also agree about playing it multiple times.  There is no way I can make a call after one sitting.  The first round I was blown away and purposely said I need to have a cold shower and sleep on it before I made any comments.  When I played my second and third rounds and still loved it, I was confident how good it is.  So, so good. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Hi John,


Its all good but for the avoidance of any doubt, I didn't mean it should be top 20 but rather I would personally choose to play there above any in the current GOLF world top 20 that I have played.

I love that description. I believe I would also play TI above any of the current GOLF world top 20 that I have played. It looks that good.

[jeffwarne]

John,
Having not been to Bandon, and stating Tara Iti may be World Top 25.I assume you're addressing me.
Given that I'm predisposed to avoid highly touted and ranked courses because of the cost, crowds, attitudes,and hassles they often entail, (a glance at my typical overseas itinerary would certainly highlight that)
you're right that I'm probably not qualified (or interested) in ranking courses or even in playing ranked courses.(the other 4 courses I played in NZ would demonstrate that-in fact I drove past a comped Kauri Cliffs offer to pay green fees at a local muni)
That said, a quick glance at Golf's
list shows Ive played 17 of the Top 25.Tara Iti is easily better IMHO than at least 5 of those so even if we put in all 4 of the Bandon courses for you, its still Top 25.

The entry fee was $395 each.
My son played as my guest so there's another $395.
Caddie fees were $140 per bag, x 2 players x 3 1/2 rounds .
So roughly $1750 US for 3 days of golf not including airfare, lodging, rental car etc.
By far the most Ive ever spent for golf-about $250 each player per round.

On my other 4 rounds in New Zealand. I spent a total of $100 for 4 rounds for 2 players, about $12.50 per round.

Yet somehow, I would rank Rank Tara Iti substantially higher.

I have to disagree with Simon on the tacos though. Five under through 12 on my own ball we stopped for tacos , I went awol for 3 holes,and I never made another birdie in the event, though my son did valiantly step up to keep us alive to advance though to the next match.

Maybe it was the honey.......

[Clyde Johnson]

(the other 4 courses I played in NZ would demonstrate that-in fact I drove past a comped Kauri Cliffs offer to pay green fees at a local muni)

Since this thread has already been derailed, where else did you play Jeff? Any thoughts/favourites?

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