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Jonathan Mallard

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Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« on: June 05, 2015, 07:00:16 PM »
But, we need to keep seniors in the game because it's too hard.

/soapbox on/

So, we need new technology to make it easier for them.

So we'll then have to defend par.

So...

Oh, nevermind.

/soapbox off/

http://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-news/jack-nicklaus-golf-too-slow-expensive-and-difficult

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2015, 07:08:14 PM »
Why this obsession with "defending par"? It's a made up number.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2015, 07:20:32 PM »
He is right, of course. I just wish he had those thoughts in mind when he went into the golf course design business...

Mark Pavy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2015, 09:20:38 PM »
This is nothing new, search Nicklaus Golf 2.0 speech. As long as key opinions continue to be influenced by the US Tour, nothing will change. Cut the head off the snake- The US Tour is boring.

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2015, 10:12:43 PM »
1)Influenced generations of golfers with his game, INCLUDING pretty bad pace of play
    (they didn't show him walking faster, just standing over shots and putts forever)

2) Built difficult, (many) hard to maintain, and expensive courses


LAte to the party a bit, but better late than never!

Jason Way

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2015, 10:23:47 PM »
Until he goes on in one of these interviews to say specifically what he, Jack Nicklaus the architect and elder statesmen of the game, is doing about those issues, all he is doing is undermining he is own credibility.

"The game is too hard, takes too long, and is too expensive. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to get to a press conference with Donald Trump to talk about Ferry Point."

Sheesh.
"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2015, 10:37:29 PM »
It's probably not fair to jump JN over this.  I'm sure there is a publicist that edits or writes most of these things.  You have to blame the machine and the JN brand machine is part of the machine.
If any of you recall the old Golf Course News magazine from the early 90's you would note that none of the signatures ever mentioned public golf or cheaper golf.   They had all the private expensive golf they could build.  But once it became obvious that CCFAD's were needed and muni projects were part of their new game plan, then the memo changed and the speaking positions changed for them.  I remember the crap so many of us that had been designing public more economical course had to listen to from the big boys.  I've got several articles form that time frame stating what was happening and now they could be reprinted and used word for word.  Funny how times changed. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom Yost

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2015, 10:42:53 PM »
1)Influenced generations of golfers with his game, INCLUDING pretty bad pace of play
    (they didn't show him walking faster, just standing over shots and putts forever)

2) Built difficult, (many) hard to maintain, and expensive courses


You beat me to it.

Jack should look in the mirror.


Jason Way

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2015, 10:55:56 PM »
It's probably not fair to jump JN over this.  I'm sure there is a publicist that edits or writes most of these things.

Just to be clear, I am not jumping JN for what this article says.  And in all fairness, I don't know what, if anything, he is doing through his business to help alleviate these "talking points" issues.  What I am jumping him for is what he is not saying (specific solutions), and I am jumping him for the fact that it's not clear to me through the media or his own design firm website, what he is doing about it on the ground.

He is Jack Damn Nicklaus.  He, of all people, could start making a difference on these problems today if he wanted to.  Giving interviews, through a publicist or otherwise, about the same old stuff that everyone is saying, ain't doin' nuthin'.
"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

noonan

Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2015, 11:45:44 PM »
Played in 4.5 hours on a Friday afternoon today. There was a par 3 where I could not get there with a 4 rescue from the white tees. 6700 yards. Back in the 90's they had the white tees at the front of the tee boxes and the blues 1/2 way back as he back pf the tees is 7200 yards. The club decided to add in gold tees and it put about 400 yards on the course. It is a slog. It is not fun. Many in the business are idiots. Reason for the slow round - idiots in front playing the back (blue) tees and no way did any of them break 90. 3 hours on the front 9. We made it through them at the turn when they went in for a drink.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2015, 11:52:16 PM »
It's probably not fair to jump JN over this.  I'm sure there is a publicist that edits or writes most of these things.

Just to be clear, I am not jumping JN for what this article says.  And in all fairness, I don't know what, if anything, he is doing through his business to help alleviate these "talking points" issues.  What I am jumping him for is what he is not saying (specific solutions), and I am jumping him for the fact that it's not clear to me through the media or his own design firm website, what he is doing about it on the ground.

He is Jack Damn Nicklaus.  He, of all people, could start making a difference on these problems today if he wanted to.  Giving interviews, through a publicist or otherwise, about the same old stuff that everyone is saying, ain't doin' nuthin'.

Jason,
Here is the issue...JN can't build a golf course for what myself or other guys in my position can.  There is no reason for him to so so.  No one who relies on the GCA/general contractor method can do so and because there are plenty of jobs where he can make more than trying to build a cheaper golf course, he has no reason to do it. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jon Cavalier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2015, 12:18:05 AM »
Played in 4.5 hours on a Friday afternoon today. There was a par 3 where I could not get there with a 4 rescue from the white tees. 6700 yards. Back in the 90's they had the white tees at the front of the tee boxes and the blues 1/2 way back as he back pf the tees is 7200 yards. The club decided to add in gold tees and it put about 400 yards on the course. It is a slog. It is not fun. Many in the business are idiots. Reason for the slow round - idiots in front playing the back (blue) tees and no way did any of them break 90. 3 hours on the front 9. We made it through them at the turn when they went in for a drink.

I'm feeling your pain, Jerry. 5 hours at my club today - on our secondary (easier) course. Had the unpleasant-in-the-extreme experience of having my foursome held up by a twosome starting on the 7th hole and continuing through the end of the round. Absolutely, positively brutal. Good thing those pace of play sheets that my club is handing out are really having an impact.

On Nicklaus, I agree with Jason. While Nicklaus has designed some of the most difficult courses I've ever played (I am a low ball hitter, and I often have nowhere to go on some holes at some of his courses), he's got enough pull that if he might be one of the few guys who could have a real impact if he proposed some actual solutions.
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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2015, 07:24:13 AM »
Is Ralph Lauren going to start making jeans for Lee?   :) :)  Is Lexus or Mercedes going to start competing with Kia?  The head of both knows their product is not meant for all and accepts such.  Both have good products that fit their niche and both are profitable.  The day that Lexus starts telling the world that driving is too expensive and difficult will be when Kia knows the luxury end of the auto market is not working.  But it doesn't mean one doesn't appreciate the Lexus. :)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Dan Smoot

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2015, 07:58:19 AM »
1)Influenced generations of golfers with his game, INCLUDING pretty bad pace of play
    (they didn't show him walking faster, just standing over shots and putts forever)

2) Built difficult, (many) hard to maintain, and expensive courses


You beat me to it.

Jack should look in the mirror.



Maybe he did.

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2015, 08:30:01 AM »
So JN is not a person who has his own thoughts, feelings or values??  Is he just the figure head for an industry group (his own) that has unknowable and uncontrollable inertia?

I cannot accept that.

He can build and operate $40 a round golf courses if he wanted to.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2015, 08:59:16 AM »
He's just taken a handful of decades to come to this conclusion. He has plenty of company, to be sure.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2015, 09:12:25 AM »
Every town has a cheap easy course. Guess what...it's crowded as hell. As GolfNow loves to say, go play.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2015, 09:16:28 AM »



Jonathan,,

Nicklaus was one of the slowest golfers in professional golf.

Does anyone remember the Senior Open at Ridgewood when he was two holes behind the group ahead of him in the final round ?


But, we need to keep seniors in the game because it's too hard.

/soapbox on/

So, we need new technology to make it easier for them.

So we'll then have to defend par.

So...

Oh, nevermind.

/soapbox off/

http://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-news/jack-nicklaus-golf-too-slow-expensive-and-difficult


Frank Giordano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2015, 10:07:43 AM »
I think many of you have got it just right.  Several months ago, in a Chinese golf magazine, I wrote on this very topic.  I stated then that no one has been more responsible for the ailments the game suffers than Jack Nicklaus himself.

The idea that there is not much fun in the golf business  is hardly new.  The world’s greatest golfer and, arguably, the most successful golf course designer, Jack Nicklaus, has recently claimed that "Golf has become too difficult, too expensive and takes too long."   Ironically, no one  has had more to do with golf’s becoming too difficult  and too expensive  than Mr. Nicklaus himself. Indeed, he bears much of the responsibility for the game’s taking too long  also,  as generations of golfers watching him on television learned to  adopt his deliberately,  often infuriatingly slow pace of play.   But, since golf has always been primarily a matter of business  for him, and because he has always been a great player and a most successful champion, it’s not surprising that he is also one of the world’s most successful businessmen.

But the business of business is not to have fun,  and to claim that there’s no fun  in the golf business should shock no one.  The current malaise in the American golf scene,  which threatens the viability of golf course operations throughout the land, is a result of the many complex ways that the business of  golf  is subverting the game of golf.   Throughout the industry,  there is much wailing and gnashing of teeth over the question of how to get golf growing again.

Jason Way

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2015, 10:54:08 AM »
Mike, let's set aside for a moment the facts that a) Lexus is owned by Toyota, b) that Ralph Lauren produces clothing under the down-market Chaps brand, and c) that Jack Nicklaus has certainly put his name on numerous products over the years that are less-than-premium. 

Whether or not JN feels like he has reason enough to invest his GCA time and resources in actually doing something about the problems he laments is not why I take issue with him.  He can do what he wants.  My point is simply, if he chooses not to use his considerable resources to help solve the problems, then he should shut up about it and go about his business.  By talking about it at the same time that his actions are unproductive or even counterproductive, he looks like a hypocrite.   
"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2015, 10:56:21 AM »
There's a lot to respond to here.  Mostly, Mike Young has it nailed.  Jack is getting too much blame here, though that's the yang of having always gotten too much credit.  Though, he and his company COULD stop trying to export the failed, expensive brand of golf to every other country on the globe.

To Carl Rogers:  Yes, I suppose Jack Nicklaus could build and operate $40 golf courses if he wanted to ... and lose money at them.  That is not a business model that is being done successfully by anyone today, as far as I know.  The most famous developer, Mike Keiser, has become a national hero for building $200 golf courses; ask Mike if HE wants to start building and operating $40 courses.  He is a business person; he wants to charge whatever the market will bear.  I personally have built three $40 courses ... and two of them [High Pointe and Charlotte Golf Links] are now closed.  The third [CommonGround] is run by a non-profit group, and that is the only way I see that working.

To Jerry Kessler:  You are blaming the architect because you're playing from a tee that's too far back?  And then you're complaining about the guys in front of you playing from too far back?  Think that through.

Jack has always had a difficult time relating to the average golfer.  He spent fifty years of his life always trying to improve or to maintain his ability, and never just going out to play golf for fun.  He is the wrong guy to speak for golf.  But so is everyone else who makes a living at it.  It would be nice if some of these guys would retire from the business, and devote some time to trying to fix things without a profit motive in mind.  Golf needs to make room for a younger generation to try something different.


Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2015, 11:00:21 AM »
...And Arnie thinks the game isn't expensive enough.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

David Whitmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2015, 11:10:10 AM »
The world’s greatest golfer and, arguably, the most successful golf course designer, Jack Nicklaus, has recently claimed that "Golf has become too difficult, too expensive and takes too long."   Ironically, no one  has had more to do with golf’s becoming too difficult  and too expensive  than Mr. Nicklaus himself. Indeed, he bears much of the responsibility for the game’s taking too long  also,  as generations of golfers watching him on television learned to  adopt his deliberately,  often infuriatingly slow pace of play. 

Jack certainly doesn't need me to defend him, but I am going to while respectfully disagreeing with you, Frank. I watched Jack play for many years when I was a kid, and never decided to play deliberately because he did. I have watched Jim Furyk step away time and again, and have not followed his lead. Most everyone knows golf's "rules" (unwritten as they are) for pace of play. If a guy or a group takes too long to play or stands over a putt forever or steps back time and again, it's their fault, not Jack's or Furyk's. Jack never did anything to me; I have always been responsible for my own actions. The blame goes to those individuals and the courses who have allowed a slow pace of play to infiltrate its operations.

Guys like Jack, Rory, et al have a responsibility to fans and others to act with class, and be good sportsmen. They are working...making their living. Who am I to tell a guy how to conduct his professional affairs as long as he's not being rude, boorish, or impacting me? I don't want anybody telling me how to compile financial statements in a different way; I'll do it how it works for me. I didn't start cussing every sentence because I watched Bobby Knight coach or read A Season on the Brink; when I coached basketball I was able to decide for myself what parts of Knight's coaching I wanted to emulate and which parts I needed to ignore.

As far as golf courses, I'm sure Jack gave his clients what they wanted. Props to the architect who turned down a job because he didn't want to design a course as tough as the client wanted; my guess is that has hardly ever happened. Why can't golfers, when they play a Nicklaus course, play the tees they think are best for themselves? As long as they play in an acceptable amount of time, I don't care what they do. And if their games result in a too- long pace of play, it's on them, not Jack. Each golfer is responsible for his own game and actions.

Finally, Jack's thoughts on the matter have changed. What's wrong with that? We're seeing it all over, and accepting philosophical changes, when it comes to things like gay marriage, smoking in public, etc. We do not chastise people who change their minds on those issues; why is this different (certainly not correlating their importance or social impact)? Jack is the greatest player ever; he is one of the most gracious sportsmen ever; he has designed courses I like to play; he's speaking about changes he thinks need to happen for the good of the game. I simply and respectfully don't agree with those who are blaming him for the state of golf.

Jim Adkisson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2015, 11:13:37 AM »
Jack has always had a difficult time relating to the average golfer.  He spent fifty years of his life always trying to improve or to maintain his ability, and never just going out to play golf for fun.  He is the wrong guy to speak for golf.  But so is everyone else who makes a living at it.  It would be nice if some of these guys would retire from the business, and devote some time to trying to fix things without a profit motive in mind.  Golf needs to make room for a younger generation to try something different.



Tom, don't you think that if Jack and others "who make a living at" playing golf get out of the GCA game, it would just breed a new younger group of top-flight tour players who would dabble in GCA because the clients want a brand name for their new CHAMPIONSHIP course?  You say that Mr. Kaiser (my hero) isn't interested in building $40 courses, but the Bandon Muni Evens courses sound to be exactly this model for the locals in the SW corner of our great state...though as a Thank You for the success he has had at the main resort, and a place for all of the employees to be able to play...again, it will be a non-profit venture, not the main show.

Jason Way

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2015, 11:56:59 AM »
He is the wrong guy to speak for golf.  

This is my point exactly.  Stop speaking about things that you are not going to do anything about, and conduct your successful business.  It's the disconnect between the words and actions that is my issue, not the actions themselves.

I am throwing up in my mouth a little while I am typing this, but in this regard, I respect Donald Trump more than Jack Nicklaus.  He is building difficult, expensive golf courses and making no apologies about it.  He is not lamenting the state of the game.  He is conducting his business and not pretending like he cares otherwise.
"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

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