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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Sanctity of Area
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2015, 07:57:37 PM »
Kyle

My comment about fairways was related to fairway=good and rough=bad.  While I wouldn't say the lie is an entitlement, it is simply a statememt of fact that fairway lies are far more often better than lies in the rough.  If you are asking if being in the rough or fairway should have any bearing on if one is allowed to handle the ball due to poor conditions, then no, I don't think there should be a distinction.   

So far as balls stopping near holes...I have no doubt in my mind that stopping balls within 3 feet of the cup was very much more possible 150 years ago than today with far slower and I believe flatter greens. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Sanctity of Area
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2015, 08:24:53 PM »
Sean,
Isn't fairway a figment of one's imagination ?  Until irrigation I'm not sure there was rough...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: The Sanctity of Area
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2015, 08:33:20 PM »
Sean,
Isn't fairway a figment of one's imagination ?  Until irrigation I'm not sure there was rough...

Mike:

You raise a great question:  when was the term "rough" first used in architecture?

I'm pretty sure it was pre-irrigation.  Off the top of my head, the first mention I can remember was MacKenzie's line from his 1920 book that, in the great schools of golf like St. Andrews and Hoylake, there was no defined line between fairway and rough.

It occurs to me that what Kyle is calling "the sanctity of area" relies on what we have called "definition" of golf courses into these different areas.  MacKenzie was anti-definition, and so am I.

Brent Hutto

Re: The Sanctity of Area
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2015, 08:53:35 PM »
But when the Rules begin to distinguish procedures and penalties specific to "areas" the course is expected to reinforce those distinctions. Are there any Rules of Golf which distinguish between fairway and rough?

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Sanctity of Area
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2015, 09:01:49 PM »
Sean,
Isn't fairway a figment of one's imagination ?  Until irrigation I'm not sure there was rough...

Mike:

You raise a great question:  when was the term "rough" first used in architecture?

I'm pretty sure it was pre-irrigation.  Off the top of my head, the first mention I can remember was MacKenzie's line from his 1920 book that, in the great schools of golf like St. Andrews and Hoylake, there was no defined line between fairway and rough.

It occurs to me that what Kyle is calling "the sanctity of area" relies on what we have called "definition" of golf courses into these different areas.  MacKenzie was anti-definition, and so am I.
The game was better before definition....the business wasn't....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Sanctity of Area
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2015, 09:20:30 PM »
Brent,

No, there is no definition for Fairway or Rough in the rules. Also, I think there is rather significant leeway in the definition of putting green, which reads something along the lines of, "Any ground specifically prepared for putting," or some such verbiage. I feel as though one could make a rather strong case that marking a ball on a collar is marking a ball on a "ground specifically prepared for putting," but to my knowledge nobody has pressed the matter.

Rule 25-2 addresses embedded balls stating that a "closely-mown" area is any area at fairway height or less. This seems rather vague as I feel a good argument could be made that any well-maintained and uniform turf, regardless of length, is "fairway." The use of the term fairway implies some sort of definition somewhere, with the only really distinguishing characteristic of fairway being height of cut.

I think the verbiage is such that the USGA does not start defining or codifying actual maintenance practices within the Rules of Golf. That way any golf course can maintain as they wish. I agree with this and we are in trouble if the USGA ever attempts to standardize maintenance practices de jure. However, the embedded ball situation implies a de facto definition, based on a maintenance practice. Slippery ground.

I am curious of the origin of the term fairway. Did it imply that balls stopping in this area would generally find similar conditions across it? If so, why the avoidance of codifying fairway and rough within the rules?

That being said, and as Tom Doak notes, this is a search to get back to these ideas (Rough/Fairway, et. al.) that I believe came out of the attempt to move the game inland from the linksland.



http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Sanctity of Area
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2015, 09:45:08 PM »


That being said, and as Tom Doak notes, this is a search to get back to these ideas (Rough/Fairway, et. al.) that I believe came out of the attempt to move the game inland from the linksland.





+1...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Sanctity of Area
« Reply #32 on: May 31, 2015, 03:58:38 AM »
Sean,
Isn't fairway a figment of one's imagination ?  Until irrigation I'm not sure there was rough...

Mike:

You raise a great question:  when was the term "rough" first used in architecture?

I'm pretty sure it was pre-irrigation.  Off the top of my head, the first mention I can remember was MacKenzie's line from his 1920 book that, in the great schools of golf like St. Andrews and Hoylake, there was no defined line between fairway and rough.

It occurs to me that what Kyle is calling "the sanctity of area" relies on what we have called "definition" of golf courses into these different areas.  MacKenzie was anti-definition, and so am I.

It would be interesting to discover when golfers first started to think of the course as other than through the green. 

Tom...I agree, less defined is visually far more pleasing, but harder to employ the rules.  Bunkers are a big issue in regards to this, but if they were treated like the remainder of the course it wouldn't be the issue it is.  Interestingly, sometimes the only way to tell if one is on a green is to search out the sprinkler heads. I just had this happen to me yesterday in a match...the result was a penalty against me. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Sanctity of Area
« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2015, 04:15:10 AM »
"Fairway' and 'rough'.

I recall reading somewhere many years ago that it was called 'fairway' as that was the fairest (ie easiest) way to proceed and that 'rough' was pretty much everything else.

Kind of makes sense if you consider a parcel of pretty much virgin links land a century or two ago when the flatter shorter grass, probably nibbled by sheep and cattle, was the 'fair' (ie easiest) route to proceed and the rest of the area would be clumps and mounds and hollows full of longer, unkempt, scruffy grasses and sand patches and weeds etc that were best avoided.

atb

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Sanctity of Area
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2015, 07:54:31 AM »
Is it possible the term "fairway" predates its usage for golf?
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Sanctity of Area
« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2015, 09:45:13 AM »
Is it possible the term "fairway" predates its usage for golf?

Te original rules #4:  4. You are not to remove Stones, Bones or any Break Club, for the sake of playing your Ball, Except upon the fair Green and that only / within a Club's length of your Ball.  Could it have come from there?  Also note thatthe word "fair" was not capitalized.

Sean,
If oyu can't define the edge of the green except by irrigation heads, how did they enforce a penalty on you?
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Sanctity of Area
« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2015, 10:45:45 AM »
Sean,
Isn't fairway a figment of one's imagination ?  Until irrigation I'm not sure there was rough...

Mike -

Joshua Crane talked about rough. He wanted more of it so that off-line shots were reliably penalized. MacK disagreed and therein lies a long tale.

I don't know when the term was first used. A more interesting question would be why the term was first used.

Bob

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Sanctity of Area
« Reply #37 on: May 31, 2015, 10:55:36 AM »
Is it possible the term "fairway" predates its usage for golf?

Te original rules #4:  4. You are not to remove Stones, Bones or any Break Club, for the sake of playing your Ball, Except upon the fair Green and that only / within a Club's length of your Ball.  Could it have come from there?  Also note thatthe word "fair" was not capitalized.

Sean,
If oyu can't define the edge of the green except by irrigation heads, how did they enforce a penalty on you?

I wasn't willing to argue the point in a dicey situation which didn't mean much to me in any case  :o

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: The Sanctity of Area
« Reply #38 on: May 31, 2015, 01:57:08 PM »
Tom...I agree, less defined is visually far more pleasing, but harder to employ the rules.  Bunkers are a big issue in regards to this, but if they were treated like the remainder of the course it wouldn't be the issue it is.  Interestingly, sometimes the only way to tell if one is on a green is to search out the sprinkler heads. I just had this happen to me yesterday in a match...the result was a penalty against me. 

Ciao

Sean:

You would like Pacific Dunes.  There is so much native, open sand that the USGA gave up on trying to decide what was a bunker, and decided all the sandy areas would be treated as "through the green" for tournament play.  Likewise, they do such a fine job of blurring the mowing lines there that it is impossible to tell where the greens begin or end, so by local rule the USGA declared that the sprinkler heads were the "mowing line".  [There was even a quarterfinal match in the Public Links Championship where one player called another on marking his ball "off the green", as happened to you.  It does not speak well of one's opponent.]

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Sanctity of Area
« Reply #39 on: May 31, 2015, 07:18:15 PM »
Sean,
Isn't fairway a figment of one's imagination ?  Until irrigation I'm not sure there was rough...

Mike -

Joshua Crane talked about rough. He wanted more of it so that off-line shots were reliably penalized. MacK disagreed and therein lies a long tale.

I don't know when the term was first used. A more interesting question would be why the term was first used.

Bob
BC,
Did sheep determine that rough?
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Sanctity of Area
« Reply #40 on: June 01, 2015, 09:00:02 AM »
Mike -

I don't know the origins of the term. In the absence of doing the work of actually researching the topic, I'd note that during the last couple of decades of the 19th century there were complaints that TOC had gotten too wide and therefore too easy. You heard talk of increased foot traffic on the outward holes having pushed 'rough areas' and gorse back (towards what became The New).

Interestingly, the response was not to tighten the playing corridors by planting new gorse or letting the turf get high. Rather the R&A added bunkers along the right sides of the outward holes. Some were added in 1899 and the last in the spring of 1905 at John Low's direction. But they didn't tighten those hole corridors by installing what we call today 'rough'.   

Bob   

Andrew Buck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Sanctity of Area
« Reply #41 on: June 01, 2015, 10:59:00 AM »
When you suggest that sprinkler heads determine the parameters of the green, does this imply that if the "green" was mowed in a perfect circle, with 4 heads evenly dispersed around the circumference, it would create a "square" green with a border on line of sight between the sprinkler heads?