Do windy sites demand

[Patrick_Mucci]

Large greens ?

It's hard to imagine a "windy" course with well bunkered greens where the greens are small.

Not long ago I played a course on a windy site and was surprised by the size of the greens.

While they didn't seem large or overly large from the tee or DZ, once on them, I was impressed by their scale.

Are there courses on windy sites that have small greens in the U.S. ?

[jeffwarne]

Large greens ?

It's hard to imagine a "windy" course with well bunkered greens where the greens are small.

Not long ago I played a course on a windy site and was surprised by the size of the greens.

While they didn't seem large or overly large from the tee or DZ, once on them, I was impressed by their scale.

Are there courses on windy sites that have small greens in the U.S. ?

Pebble Beach

[Rees Milikin]

Great Dunes on Jekyll Island

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

I don't consider Pebble Beach to be a windy site.

But, I could be convinced otherwise😜

[jeffwarne]

Jeff,

I don't consider Pebble Beach to be a windy site.

But, I could be convinced otherwise😜

ask Kite in '92 Open

[Josh Stevens]

is that not more a question of the style of the greens rather than simply size?

Sure, tiny pop up greens that are fatal if missed, such as being surrounded by horrendous rough, sand or water would be a nightmare.  But small greens that sit lower to the ground and offer some interesting chipping and recovery options are not

[Pat Burke]

Jeff,

I don't consider Pebble Beach to be a windy site.

But, I could be convinced otherwise😜

ask Kite in '92 Open

How about Breezy?  Would that be ok?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

I don't consider Pebble Beach to be a windy site.

But, I could be convinced otherwise😜

ask Kite in '92 Open

Jeff,

A few days, don't a windy site make !

[Patrick_Mucci]

is that not more a question of the style of the greens rather than simply size?

NO

Sure, tiny pop up greens that are fatal if missed, such as being surrounded by horrendous rough, sand or water would be a nightmare.  But small greens that sit lower to the ground and offer some interesting chipping and recovery options are not

[Tom_Doak]

It's not necessary to have large greens on a windy course.  Greens in Scotland and Ireland are not "large".

However it is essential to have some short grass around the greens so that there are places to play to in a strong tailwind.  You see that everywhere on links courses ... no rough adjacent to the greens.

[GLawson]

Tom,

Do you think one could get away with designing a new course today in a windy area with small greens?  What if you dropped Stonewall's greens into Barnbougle or Cape Kidnappers?  I love all of your courses but I think people expect huge, contoured greens with new designs.

[Phil Young]

Pat,

I would think you'd be familiar with Southward Ho CC on Long Island. Its about a half mile from the Atlantic Ocean and built on a very flat piece of land. The wind there is a constant feature and was factored into the original design by Tilly. The greens are average in size although there are a couple that can be considered large. What makes the green complexes fascinating to me is that on 11 of the holes Tilly designed short grass to the sides and/or backs including some rather large runoff/chipping areas of as much as 40 feet. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

It's not necessary to have large greens on a windy course.  Greens in Scotland and Ireland are not "large".

Tom Doak,

You may have missed my citation limiting the discussion to courses in the U.S.

However it is essential to have some short grass around the greens so that there are places to play to in a strong tailwind.  You see that everywhere on links courses ... no rough adjacent to the greens.

Is that configuration present on U.S. Courses located on windy sites ?
I consider Bandon to be a windy site,would you classify the greens there as small, medium or large ?

[David Davis]

I'd say from experience small greens are not ideal. I don't consider the greens at Pebble really small but I always here them called that. Without knowing the square meters/ft off hand and what's average I didn't feel like they were overly small.

My home course has small greens, expat square meters are probably something like 350 - 600 with none being larger than this. I think this is by far the biggest problem with the site. We have very windy conditions, annual average is 18 mph (28 km/hr). Oh and also full of long rough which as Tom mentions is not ideal.

The first I'd consider an architecture fault, the second is a maintenance issue. A new set of larger greens with varying pin positions would be an ideal solution here and could greatly improve playability of the course.

[David_Elvins]

I'd say from experience small greens are not ideal. I don't consider the greens at Pebble really small but I always here them called that. Without knowing the square meters/ft off hand and what's average I didn't feel like they were overly small.

I think most at pebble are under 400m2

[David Davis]

I'd say from experience small greens are not ideal. I don't consider the greens at Pebble really small but I always here them called that. Without knowing the square meters/ft off hand and what's average I didn't feel like they were overly small.

I think most at pebble are under 400m2

David,

It's funny you post that one as it's the one photo I have I was looking up as it stuck out in my head as very small. I just don't remember the others feeling so small but perhaps you get use to it. The last time I played it, it was very windy.

Is that the smallest or do you think others are much smaller.

[Thomas Dai]

It's not necessary to have large greens on a windy course.  Greens in Scotland and Ireland are not "large".

However it is essential to have some short grass around the greens so that there are places to play to in a strong tailwind.  You see that everywhere on links courses ... no rough adjacent to the greens.

............and where the greens themselves have the HoC maybe a wee bit higher?
atb

[David_Elvins]

Is that the smallest or do you think others are much smaller.

I think it's the smallest although I wouldn't think 7,8,9,10,12, or 14 are much bigger.  

I think the general green size at Pebble is a bit over 300m2 - small! EDIT: Reported at 3580 sq ft.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

Do you think one could get away with designing a new course today in a windy area with small greens?  What if you dropped Stonewall's greens into Barnbougle or Cape Kidnappers?  I love all of your courses but I think people expect huge, contoured greens with new designs.

I think in general, not many architects today design greens that are "small" by classic standards.  Superintendents express concern about greens that are "too small" and might provide wear issues; plus in general new courses are being built on large-scale, open sites and in many cases, small greens would seem out of scale to everything else.  [Remember, too, that many classic greens have shrunk from what was originally designed.]

I still don't think there's anything wrong with having small greens on a windy site, if you allow for the wind with regard to the placement of hazards.

[Tom_Doak]

However it is essential to have some short grass around the greens so that there are places to play to in a strong tailwind.  You see that everywhere on links courses ... no rough adjacent to the greens.

Is that configuration present on U.S. Courses located on windy sites ?
I consider Bandon to be a windy site,would you classify the greens there as small, medium or large ?

Pacific Dunes has the smallest greens of any course at Bandon.  The smallest ones are 4,500 square feet; there are a couple that are 8,000 square feet.  Not small as a whole, but a good mix; it has certainly afforded the ladies playing in the USGA Four-Ball enough chances to make birdies this week, even in strong winds.  However, you have to remember that Mr. Keiser was out to please his "retail golfer" and I have the impression [at least on the first course] that he wanted to build bigger greens so that the average golfer could aim for the green instead of having to land the ball short.

Sebonack, as you know, has very small greens on a windy site.  It's a difficult course, as the client wanted it.

I think having to have big greens on a windy course is an oversimplification, similar to those who insist that longer par-4's should have bigger greens.  It's really all about the placement of the hazards, and not simply the size of the greens.  Bunkering ought to be a bit looser on a links course to allow for the downwind shot; but that's why some people without experience find links courses to be "easy" if they catch them on a windless day.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom,

In thinking about the greens at Bandon Dunes, are the ocean side greens larger than the inland greens, eliminating # 17.

# 13 seemed like a large green to me.

Maybe I should quantify what appears large to me.

I would quantify a large green as one that's 30 yrd wide and 40 yards deep, or more .

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

In thinking about the greens at Bandon Dunes, are the ocean side greens larger than the inland greens, eliminating # 17.

# 13 seemed like a large green to me.

Maybe I should quantify what appears large to me.

I would quantify a large green as one that's 30 yrd wide and 40 yards deep, or more .

That would be a 9,000 or 10,000 square foot green ... that's big, indeed.  I'd say anything over 7,500 is big.

#13 is one of the largest greens at Pacific Dunes.  I think it is 8,000 or 8,500 square feet.  #9 upper green is another of the biggest ones.

#11, right on the ocean, is the second smallest ... I think #6 is a bit smaller because it's so narrow.

[V. Kmetz]

Hello,

Pat, I think Maidstone would be a good test of your lab question. Some people report that this "small-greened" course is just right, and makes for a unique test of golf. I've heard others say that the small greens and wind (along with some of the property quirk) don't make for a great "near-sea" day.

I'm nearly certain you've played there in your days; so how does Maidstone answer the question you pose?

I myself haven't visited there enough to catch it on a 18+mph day, so I can't say.

Another germane one to consider is CC of Fairfield, which has a far greater mix of big and small than Maidstone (I think?) but still tends to the small side. Even though there are several hands in the current iteration of that course, I hold this course in great esteeem, as I have experienced it many, many more times and indeed caught it on some unbelievable days....truly over sustained 45 mph winds, as well as numerous sea squalls and foul weather on still other occasions.

When I put this course into your thesis question, it says to me that the green margins themselves do not have to be large, but the green complex...the total green side area must be generous, whether or not they are larded with bunkers or rough or contour or closely mown grass. Because in the most difficult wind conditions, oftentimes those surrounds act as a barrier to worse trouble or unplayable situations.

Of course, a skillful architect is going to blend in such considerations with the total design and location of a hole, but I think the area around the green must be generous, must be large in scale on a windy site, if not the actual margins of the green itself.

cheers

vk

[Will Lozier]

That would be a 9,000 or 10,000 square foot green ... that's big, indeed.  I'd say anything over 7,500 is big.

#13 is one of the largest greens at Pacific Dunes.  I think it is 8,000 or 8,500 square feet.  #9 upper green is another of the biggest ones.

#11, right on the ocean, is the second smallest ... I think #6 is a bit smaller because it's so narrow.

#4 & #7 always seemed always seemed big to me which made sense as long par-4's...and both are very difficult to hit with the former being long and narrow and being pinched by sand and cliff while #7 is just a wonder to me.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Vkmetz,

BINGO !

CC of Fairfield was the inspiration for this thread.

There aren't many small greens at CCF.

Most are quite large

# 3's green is small, but it's one of the shorter holes.

CCF is one of those courses that I could play every day for the rest of my life to the exclusion of all others.
I think the course is simply brilliant

What adds to the challenge at CCF is the removal of the trees/shrubs, depriving the golfer of the ability to "frame" the target areas, on the drive and approach.

On my most recent play there a slight breeze intensified to a strong breeze to a good 1 to 2 club wind as the day progressed.

Greens like #'s 15, 12, 13, 6, 7, 9, 1 and 14 are pretty large.

The fairways are also quite generous.

I can't imagine a course with narrow fairways and small greens on that site.