Is GCA.com a sideshow?Or can it add to a club's serious architectural discussion

[TEPaul]

That gal can write! I basically don't read long posts--even my own--but I'll read guesst's, from now on! Golfclubatlas.com has just gotten a lot better in the area of extremely thoughtful contribution!

[Lou_Duran]

TEP-

I am troubled.  You mean you don't read my lengthy whines about golf and politics?  Perhaps a lengthier sabbatical is in order.

guesst-

I was just fooling around with the questions, but thanks for taking the time to respond.  By your answers you seem to have assimilated the majority positions of this site quite nicely.  Please answer a few more questions for me.  Are you friendly with a certain individual who is simulteously afflicted and blessed with an staccato move at the ball?  Have we met?  What do you think of the Cliffs nine?  What is wrong with the waterfall at Cascata?  And as my brother Roberto would say, "no mas".

[guesst]

Tom Paul,
Thank you.  I will always try to be thoughtful, or to keep my fingers still.  I'll also make an effort to keep my posts briefer than that last one.  I just couldn't figure out a way to answer all those questions without using a lot of words.

Lou,
You're welcome.  And now for the continuing saga of, "What the Redhead Knows and Doesn't Know . . . "

The Cliffs is the best nine I have ever seen.  The view doesn't hurt.  I wish it had been there 22 years ago, the first time I was at Olympic.  I hope it is still there 22 years from now; it will be just my size when I'm a shrunken old woman.  And I wish they would get that classy orange plastic down and do something to protect it.  I know it would be expensive, but it is worth an intervention.

I am very sorry to say I have not seen Cascata, even though I could ride my bike there from my house in Boulder City.  I went up to try to get a look, but they have a gate that even my charm, beauty, and local status would not open.  The key is staying at one of the strip properties and coughing up $500.00.  If any of you gentlemen decide to play it, and would like a redhead for a caddy, please do give me a shout.

I spent a bit of time in those mountains when I was house hunting.  You can buy quite a house in that area for a pittance compared to Northern California prices.  It has fascinating rocky and mountainous terrain.  The backdrop of Lake Mead fills the horizon.  It is somewhat cooler in these mountains than it is down in Vegas - ten degrees or so, and while that doesn't sound very significant, it just seems cooler, somehow.  There are herds of bighorn sheep in the area which can at times can be seen running down the residential streets in the middle of town.  Sometimes they keep to the sidewalk, which looks pretty funny . . . well mannered sheep.

Unfortunately, I can't make a comparison of Cascata to its sister properties on the strip.  I wish I could; that might make for an interesting juxtaposition.  Given the financial resources and the mountainous terrain, I suspect its water features might very well fit in nicely.  The nearness of the largest man-made lake around can't hurt, although I don't know of you can see Lake Mead from the course . . . maybe some of you know?  If money can make water belong, and that was a goal, I'm sure it was accomplished.  

As for my politically correct opinions, I'm not sure in which areas I agree with the mob and in which I differ.  Everything I hold to be true I base upon my own observations and common sense.  If my opinions echo popular opinion, perhaps it is merely the correct opinion . . .?

[DMoriarty]

Lovely Guesst, when are you and Gib coming down to play Rustic?  He mentioned that he might be coming down soon, but he hasnt specified a date.  The views pale in comparison to the views from the Cliff's, yet the golf is quite enjoyable.   But I did not think you were much of a golfer . . . perhaps I misrecollect . . .

[guesst]

I'm not sure when he'll make it down that way with time to play.  I know we're planning on being in LA for USC's homecoming game the first weekend of November.  Perhaps Rustic will be a possibility that weekend . . . ?  

As for my penchant for the game, I am too aware of being in the way when the boys get together to play with y'all, and am truly grateful to be allowed to tag along.  Many of you have been more than kind.  That does not mean, however, that I eschew playing myself.  Not only am I playing, but I have an eleven year old who is trying to learn, as well.  When I get my game into the 80's, I'll quit playing caddy and meet you on the green. Something for you to look forward to . . .

As for my relatively new addiction to golf architecture, I've been staying up all night reading these boards since I found this site last Christmas.  Then there were months where days went by when I had nothing to do but peruse a fairly extensive library filled with nothing but Golf Architecture Books (not a chick novel in sight).  Then there were the many visits made to courses under construction, dinners with the architects and crew, and a lot of *creative movement* on the bar's dance floor, showing the contours of the perfect green.  Then I followed along to a wide variety of courses, whether it was for rating, tourney play, or just for fun, with lots of sometimes heated conversation about what was good, bad, and ugly about each individual hole.  I have been incredibly fortunate, in that most novice golfers never get to see in a lifetime the variety of tracks I've seen in a year.  Add all of those to my somewhat obsessive personality and, well, I'm hooked.  

I'm afraid it's going to get worse before it gets better.  

May that not be true of my golf game!

The truth is, so far I haven't found anyplace on God's green earth I'd rather be than on a golf course . . . unless it's a golf course on the ocean.

Now please, Gentlemen . . . enough about me.  Can we get back to Golf Architecture and its affect on our souls?

[TEPaul]

"Now please, Gentlemen . . . enough about me.  Can we get back to Golf Architecture and its affect on our souls?"

guesst:

That's the kind of suggestion I like to hear. To really get into that subject properly it will be necessary for you to read as much of Max Behr as possible. But don't fret, although his style of writing is positively bizarre, once you've desciphered his mind boggling messages your outlook on golf architecture will never be the same again. You will have entered into a whole new world of undertanding. Fortunately for you, you're probably one of the few people on here who could actually understand the value of his message.

[guesst]

So, Sage TP, with which specific tome should I begin?

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Do you remember what happened the last time you referenced the Fazio book.

Tell me, architecturally, who had the final word on the Merion and Pine Valley project in the Fazio organization ?

[DMoriarty]

. . .
Tell me, architecturally, who had the final word on the Merion and Pine Valley project in the Fazio organization ?

I don't know about "architecturally," but on this board my money is on you, Patrick.

[Gib_Papazian]

Well well well,
I see Gyro-chick has been *outed.* I was wondering how long it would take for somebody to identify that smirking redhead sitting in the corner of the Treehouse.

And all this time I thought she was engrossed in her chick novels, paying no attention while we debated the fine points of bunker styles deep into the night.  

So here she is, and if i know her, here she will stay. The fact that she was not shown the door - or forced to walk the plank - says quite a bit about us, eh? Perhaps Uncle Bob Huntley is not the only gentleman in this mob.

That stated, we have all gotten far afield of the original question posed on this thread and although I am too tired to write a treatise that Tom Paul won't read unless it is posted by "guesst," here are a few loose thoughts and observations:

GCA is not a *sideshow,* it is a THINK TANK. Just because Tim Fazio does not care a whit about what Nacarrato thinks of his work, it must be remembered that all great movements in politics, art, fad and fashion all begin with a small group of zealots.

The rap on this site is that it is comprised of a few unreasonable loonies working under the hallucination that anybody but a tiny minority care about their mental masturbation.

In truth, only a few people even know about this site, but by threshing out ideas and design philosophies, those in a position (architects, writers, superintendents, green chairman, consultants) to demonstrate the validity of our thoughts are, in a sense, disseminating our words to the rest of the world in a very tangible sense.

I've long preached against allowing this site to become a forum for the average golfer because I believe the majority of the time their posts dillute the line-of-reasoning and flow of the threads.

However, Lurkers are wonderful if they can take away something from the time they spend here and perhaps stop their Green Chairman from defecating on a classic golf course with ham-handed alterations.

But I think everyone can agree that there is no room here for people who just want to spout off half-baked drivel from their soapbox.

guesst is a good example of a highly intelligent person taking the time to really learn something about a subject and not posting until he/she has something meaningful to contribute. In just a year or so, I believe she is more ariculate and learned on golf architecture than 99% of the men and women who play at my club.

The problem is that positions of power in most clubs goes to professional sycophants instead of those who actually study the subject in great detail.

In a sense, the collective intellect of Treehouse may not DIRECTLY affect most modern architecture, but it most certainly is a conduit and pathway between the avant garde and the mainstream.

Write this down: I believe that 25 years from now, this *underground* site will be looked at by historians as one of engines that drove golf architecture to the next level.

By then, Green Chairmen throughout America will view this site (or one like it) as an indespensible resource.

Does this mean I believe that we are somehow "smarter" than everyone else?

Yes I do.

[TEPaul]

Pat asked:

"Tell me, architecturally, who had the final word on the Merion and Pine Valley project in the Fazio organization?"

Pat:

I don't know who in the Fazio organization had the 'final word' on Merion or Pine Valley. But consider this. Perhaps Tom Fazio had the 'final word' and perhaps that was the word he never spoke!!

If, however, you're asking who it was who oversaw the Merion bunker project on a day to day basis from the Fazio organization--it was a young man by the name of Tosh Belsinger. Now, if it was Tom Fazio who had the 'final word' on all that Tosh, MacDonald & Co and the club was involved with I do not know. Do you?

[TEPaul]

Gib said;

"Write this down: I believe that 25 years from now, this *underground* site will be looked at by historians as one of engines that drove golf architecture to the next level.
By then, Green Chairmen throughout America will view this site (or one like it) as an indespensible resource."

Gib:

Reading that carefully it's OK with me if historians view this site as one of the engines that drove golf architecture to the next level--however, I'd like to hear your prediction on how long it took this "engine" to drive golf architecture to that next level.

How about tomorrow or at the very latest--next week?!

[Gib_Papazian]

Tom,
It is already happening, step by step, inch by inch.

Look at who checks in with the site? Doak, Eckenrode, Meagher, Brauer . . . .

And let me just assure you that although big shots like Rees or Fazio do not lurk, members of their staff do. It is inconceivable that we are unknown in ANY of the major *factory firms,* with frustrated kids chained to a drafting table - dying to get out and show they can do better than churn out putrid, cookie cutter golf holes.

The dream of being a Doak or a DeVries - somebody on the cutting edge who pushes the envelope - that is who the *creative arts* attact.

I wanted to be Stanley Kubrick when I was at SC Cinema School. It is all the same.

This reminds me of a quote I believe attributed to Nikita Kruschev during the cold war:

"We shall take over America without firing a shot."

GCA is akin to a poilitical movement trying to change the status quo.

Rees Jones is Richard Nixon, Jack Nicklaus is Ike Eisenhower.

Tom Doak is Mario Savio, Jeff Brauer is Bobby Kennedy, working within the system. Mike Strantz is Abbie Hoffman . . . . . . . . Pete Dye is Timothy Leary.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I don't know who in the Fazio organization had the 'final word' on Merion or Pine Valley.
But consider this. Perhaps Tom Fazio had the 'final word' and perhaps that was the word he never spoke!!

TEPaul, you know better than this.  

If, however, you're asking who it was who oversaw the Merion bunker project on a day to day basis from the Fazio organization--it was a young man by the name of Tosh Belsinger.

So, when you build your addition to the farm, you look to the individual carpenters and foreman for architectural and technical conformance, not the general contractor

Now, if it was Tom Fazio who had the 'final word' on all that Tosh, MacDonald & Co and the club was involved with I do not know.

Yes you do.

 Do you?

yes

TEPaul,

In reviewing your answers, and your denial of any knowledge of FAZIO's involvement, why didn't you halt the onslaught by Tommy Naccarato and others when they were villifying FAZIO for the design, and construction of Merion's Bunkers ?

Why didn't you say, "now hold it boys. maybe FAZIO isn't involved here, maybe it's someone else.  Maybe it's Tosh,
or Tim, or Dan, so let's not be so quick to bash FAZIO, let's look into this and find out the facts, let's find out who is responsible for this work before we begin our scathing attacks"
But, you didn't do that did you ?  You accepted that FAZIO was the party involved, the culprit who was the object of the harsh criticism.

YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS

[Patrick_Mucci]

Gib Papazian,

I was at a member-guest recently, and was surprised by the number of people who approached me and indicated that they tune in to GCA.com.

I'm not so sure it's a miniscule segment of the golfing world.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat, You never really understood what we were complaining about did you?

[Gyrogolf]

Patick,
It is definitely not a miniscule segment of *OUR* world and the circle in which we travel, but in a broader sense - GCA is absolutely unknown by the average player in America - and these are the people who *really* represent the public.

We both have to face the inescapable fact that we live and play most of our golf at highfalutin clubs with a pedigree.Uncle Joe down the street who calls Poplar Creek his home course does not play in the Travis or Havermeyer Cup.

My point is that this DG is known to the people who matter, plus  a sprinkling of a few more lurkers.

I could be wrong, but the vast majority of golfers - and people- do not want to think too deeply about anything, let along golf design. It astounds me some of the conversations I've had with Green Committeemen who are charged with making informed decsions about their golf course.

One of them refused to even read a passage out of "The Links" I brought for him. They don't want to have their brainless opinions tainted with fact or experience.

You and I have talked about this for hours and we both know you are 1000 times more informed than the average committeeman in this country.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Post #120 is hilarious. I really have no idea what Tom Fazio's involvment was in the Merion bunker project except obviously to get his company involved in the project--and I have to believe you have no idea what his involvement in the project was either--all you're doing is making an assumption.

Tom Fazio is a delightful man to meet and speak with but he truly says and does some of the strangest things. He came to speak at our GAP forum on restoration architecture about 16 months ago. He was on the panel with Bill Greenwood and Brad Klein.

Tom started out by saying that his experiences in restoration architecture began decades ago at places like Oak Hill and he said he's not proud of that and furthermore he and his Uncle lost a ton of money on those restoration projects--and so he agreed with his Uncle years ago that neither one of them would ever do restoration projects again. People were looking at each other as if to say; "Are we hearing what we're hearing?"

I mean come on!! Here he's speaking at a f..ing restoration forum in 2002, here every single one of the 200 people in the room knows he's doing the bunker restoration at Merion and that he's done a number of restoration projects all over the place--that his company touted the "restauration" of Riviera as so good that Geo Thomas would be pleased as punch if he could come back from the dead and see what they did to his great course.

Come on Pat, get off this "You can't have it both ways" stuff. If I knew what Tom Fazio did or didn't do at Merion maybe I would've said something to TommyN about it but I have no idea what he personally did or didn't do there.

Even if I would've spoken to TomF at that restoration forum I doubt I'd know what the hell he's doing anyway. I mean here he is speaking at a restoration forum basically denying he's done restoration projects in years and here he is in front of 200 people saying that he isn't interested in doing one again. I should've just stood up and asked him:

"Then what in the hell are you doing at Merion Tom--REDESIGNING those famous old bunkers the way you think they ought to be? What are you doing at Riviera Tom--redesigning the course the way you think Geo Thomas really wanted it?"

I'm not that rude!

I do know Tosh Belsinger a little bit--an excellent young man. I've known his Dad for years. I saw Tosh at Merion a number of times. He even called me out of the blue one time when he was doing some research on a Flynn bunker or two at Manufacturers.

Whatever TomF did or didn't do at Merion or any other place, he doesn't need me defending him anyway when he's got you defending him the way you're trying to!

[Gib_Papazian]

Patrick et al:
To continue on my previous thought, I give much credit to this website to awaken memberships of storied Golden Age tracks to the importance of restoration and reverence to their original strategic schematics.

The seed begins there and is slowly spreading to the rest of the golfing world.

Witness courses like MacKenzie's Meadow Club, where DeVries is untangling some wretched redesign work and setting things right.

Peninsula CC was originally an excellent Ross course. Much of the land was later sold off and the "newer" R.T. Jones Sr. holes were just awful. Just 10 years ago, Ron Freem redid #8 and #10 - the result was laughable.

Yet because of this movement, Ron Forse was brought in to completely remodel the course, dipping into his storehouse of experience to build some WONDERFUL "Rossian" greens where none existed before.

That, my friend, is progress.
 
But by no means is this limited to restoration specialists like Doak, Hanse, Forse, Silva etc. Newer work by kids like Todd Eckenrode have bought into this way of thinking on their new creations.

I don't believe for a second that Tom Fazio is a ham-handed hack. The alternate #8 green at PV, which he handled himself, is delicious. In fact, the recreation of #2 on the practice course literally shocked me into silence. And baby, as those who know me will attest, that is a hard thing to do.

That spark has set fire to preconceived notions and this little brush fire will eventually spread into the consciousness of all but the most aesthetically challenged.

My vision of the future, unlike my friend Geoff - whose opinions I respect more than nearly anyone but George Bahto - is a bright one.

I am doubtful that without this movement Ben Crenshaw and Bill Coore could have found the freedom (and land) to perform as they have.

Three cheers for Mike Keiser.

We are on the way my friend! Rather than carp on what is wrong, perhaps we ought to spend more time celebrating what is right!

Plus, my sense is that even work like Merion's bunkers will eventually devolve enough to be nearly indistinguishable from the white faces that came before them.

It may not be perfect, but we are not operating in a vacuum. Each time the consciouness of a single person is raised, we are that much further along the road to return to the genius of our past.

[guesst]

So, when you build your addition to the farm, you look to the individual carpenters and foreman for architectural and technical conformance, not the general contractor

I realize you are asking TP and not me, but I'd just like to interject a *YES!* in here.  If I'm remodeling my kitchen, I want to know exactly who is subcontracted to make my cabinets and lay my tile.  Of course the choice of General Contractors is the most important, but the GC
can choose from many craftsmen, of varying levels of expertise.

In the end, it is the skill of the tile layer and the cabinet maker who to a large degree determine how fine the work is when complete.  If you don't know that, you must've only had good experiences with your construction projects.  I have not been so fortunate.

If I'm the next billionaire building a course, I'll want the best route planner, the best greens concept guy, the best bunker designer, and an artist on the bulldozer, in addition to the genius master planner who oversees the whole project and brings everything into focus.  

I've been on courses during construction, and I've seen what a huge difference the man on the tractor makes.  

But I'm a bit of an obsessive nut, so maybe that's just me.

And now, back on thread, I have a question for you *old-timers*.  When I am logged on - especially in the middle of the night - there are often more guests (one "s") on the site than there are members.  Sometimes it's just me and five or six guests.  Do a lot of members check the site out without bothering to log on?  Or are all those guests lurkers who haven't joined the fun?  If the latter, then I think the case can be made that there are a lot more people reading here than the membership number would suggest.  

Just a thought.

[TEPaul]

"Plus, my sense is that even work like Merion's bunkers will eventually devolve enough to be nearly indistinguishable from the white faces that came before them."

Gib:

When you say something like that you'd better get over here and take a look first, maybe even get in there and get your mitts under a few bunker lips and overhangs to see what the architectural structure looks like up under there.

I'll tell you what--if you have a bunch of machine guns and a couple of potato mashers the size of medium sized trucks and you lent all of that to Merion for a few weeks maybe they could get those new bunkers to look like the old "white faces" way back when!

[guesst]

. . .  we are that much further along the road to return to the genius of our past.

It seems to me that a road which returns to our past is a rather circular route leading . . .  nowhere.

Don't get me wrong!  I don't want to walk the plank!

I'm all for the restoration of venerated courses that have, through neglect or idiocy, become something that was not intended.  I'm all for the recreation of certain tracks that were well-loved but have been lost to nature or urban expansion.  And I'm all for learning from the best of the master architects of the past as we build the courses of the future.  

But I'm also curious to see where the journey that is golf architecture will take us.  I want to see where the next 50 years go, and I hope it isn't just back to where we started, as great as that beginning was.  

I read an article recently which traced the development of the modern course from twenty holes - ten out, ten in - to the 18 we have now.  To quote the last paragraph from that article:

"Where is all this leading? Hard to tell, but if the past is any indication of the future, a hundred years from now, a discussion about why there are 18 holes on a golf course might be irrelevant. "  

The man who wrote that was anticipating a great change in architecture - perhaps one that does away with even the traditional nine or eighteen holes we take for granted.  

So how does the past we revere and the future we anticipate coalesce into the architecture we most desire?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Guesst,

When you remodeled your kitchen, did you select the contractor without any regard for cost ?

Did you give your contractor an unlimited budget ?

Are you that familiar with the tile industry that you know which company is the best, and which team of installers, down to the man, is the best ?

Ditto for your electricians, and all other craftsmen.



How much knowledge of the cabinets did the tile people have ?

How much knowledge of the tile did the cabinet people have ?

Who was responsible for the finished product, the GC or the subs ?

Or, did you do all the sub-contracting yourself, allowing the GC to be just a construction manager ??

Which architect has the BEST of all of those people you mention ?

And lastly, how would you sell the concept of unlimited project budgets, or the highest project budgets, to a membership at a club ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato,

Pat, You never really understood what we were complaining about did you?

Actually, I didn't understand it, but my dog recognized the barking and whining and informed me as to what it was that you were all complaining about.  Without man's best friend, I would have been lost in that discussion.  

It wasn't exactly azimuthal quantum theory that you were discussing.  It didn't require an incredible IQ or a MENSA interpreter/tutor in order to understand what was being said.

But, now that I've learned that FAZIO wasn't involved, I'm just wondering who you all think is responsible for the Merion bunker work ?

Rees has an alibi, he was in Scotland with some friends during the Merion Project.

[guesst]

Patrick, you have a lot of curiosity about my kitchen redo!  You will see that I am a "hands on" kind of gal.  I'll try to give you an overview of the project without taking a thousand words.  

I chose the cheapest GC I could get who I thought could achieve the results I wanted.  I became familiar with the tile and cabinetry industry in my locale.  I requested my GC hire the specific tile and cabinet people I wanted, and I specified the appliances.  The other work he hired out as he saw fit, and I trusted him to see to it they got it right.  The subs were responsible for their own finished product.  The GC was responsible for the overall job.  

I wish I knew which golf architects have the best guys working with them.  Give me another five years and ask me that question again.  Believe me, if I ever got to build a course, I would make it my work to find out.  But what are the chances of THAT?

Your last question is extremely speculative, and I doubt I have much to say of interest on the matter.  To speculate, I'd probably attempt to inspire through my own and my teams excitement.  I'd show them the project and break down the budget for each part of the construction/maintainance plan.  Finally, I would appeal to their pride.

In my experience, people can often be led to do more when they think they can become the best.  That works on my eleven year old on the driving range, and can also work in the board room.

Is it really all about the money?  I think you might come up with a great project at a lower cost (as I did in my kitchen), if you hired a GC (or an architect ) who was capable, talented, and eager, but not a "name", helped him oversee the hiring of the team, and made certain the architect agreed with you regarding the philosophical direction of the course.  

Now, I won't ask you a million questions in return, but if you could put a team together, who would it consist of?  

See how sneaky I am?  I get my first lesson from you!