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Benjamin Litman

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Brad Klein's Glowing Review of Tiger's Bluejack National
« on: February 24, 2015, 04:54:14 PM »
Brad's review of Tiger's latest is glowing:  http://golfweek.com/news/2015/feb/24/tiger-woods-bluejack-national-golf-course-design/

"In every way possible, this is a course that anyone can play and enjoy."

With strong reviews for his first two courses (El Cardonal in Mexico, now Bluejack), Tiger appears to have a thriving second career to look forward to--likely sooner than anyone ever would have imagined. He always has maintained that The Old Course is his favorite course in the world, and he appears to have meant it, integrating into his early designs many of the timeless principles that make St. Andrews great.
"One will perform in large part according to the circumstances."
-Director of Recruitment at Agahozo-Shalom Youth Village in Rwanda on why it selects orphaned children without regard to past academic performance. Refreshing situationism in a country where strict dispositionism might be expected.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brad Klein's Glowing Review of Tiger's Bluejack National
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2015, 05:15:29 PM »
Is that a review or an advertisement?
H.P.S.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brad Klein's Glowing Review of Tiger's Bluejack National
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2015, 05:25:38 PM »
I was there the day before Brad and liked it a lot. Must finish my writeup
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brad Klein's Glowing Review of Tiger's Bluejack National
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2015, 05:30:33 PM »
I  agree the course is going to be very playable.
Good property. good lay out and a course that will end up very nicely done, polished around the edges and with a defiante Fazio feel to it, as one would expect with Beau etcc involved.
A nice golf course that will do Tiger Design no harm at all.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brad Klein's Glowing Review of Tiger's Bluejack National
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2015, 05:46:13 PM »
I'm very happy for Beau Welling. Hitching himself to Tiger's star before the divorce appeared to turn out a tragic decision... but, now, it may prove to be his salvation.

I hope they can finish the North Carolina course some day.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Peter Pallotta

Re: Brad Klein's Glowing Review of Tiger's Bluejack National
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2015, 06:09:27 PM »
I remember (though it must be several years ago now) having a discussion/polite disagreement with Lynn Shackelford on Geoff's site about the "Open Letter" Brad had just written TW at what then-appeared-to-be the dawn of his design career.

I thought then that Brad was too forcefully and too prematurely foisting onto/demanding of Tiger a whole set of architectural goals and value systems that were much more about Brad's own tastes and ethos (and mine, and most of us here) than they were about Tiger's.  

In short, my main point was that I thought Brad should leave TW alone to do HIS thing, at least for a a little while, i.e. that he should let TW discover and make manifest the kind of golf courses that HE believed in and cared about and thought special.

But a few years later, it now appears that a) Brad was/is willing to give TW the benefit of the doubt, and b) that Tiger actually might've listened to him!

Peter
« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 06:13:44 PM by PPallotta »

Jason Way

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brad Klein's Glowing Review of Tiger's Bluejack National
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2015, 06:19:37 PM »
"Most of the greens are set at grade rather than perched over steep-fronting hazards, with lots of room in front for ground-game strategy...These tightly cut and firmly maintained areas are so large and carefully shaped that they can’t be called chipping areas. Instead, they are more akin to classical links-style “fore-greens” that are built to accommodate run-up shots."

This is not what I was expecting to read - very pleasant and exciting surprise.  It actually sounds interesting, and fun. 

Perhaps current players who make the transition to GCA will use their work as a retrospective commentary on how damn boring most of the courses are that they play week to week.  Probably reading too much into it, but you never know...
"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

Philip Hensley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brad Klein's Glowing Review of Tiger's Bluejack National
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2015, 06:42:57 PM »
So Tiger will struggle to play his own course.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brad Klein's Glowing Review of Tiger's Bluejack National
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2015, 12:13:19 PM »
Is that a review or an advertisement?

I'm not sure it's either.

Seems odd, to me anyway, to be "reviewing" a course many months before it will even be playable, and guessing how it will play, how firmly it will be maintained, etc. (Educated guessing, I'll grant you -- but still guessing.)

But, of course, Tiger is involved (how involved is, well, anyone's guess), which changes everything ... and there are so few new courses to review that maybe we'll be getting more and more preview reviews, even when Tiger is not involved in the least.

Also odd:

Unless I missed it, I don't see a central question answered: Public, or Private?

And I kept waiting and waiting and waiting to learn where the course is! Finally found out, in the last paragraph.

Dan



"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brad Klein's Glowing Review of Tiger's Bluejack National
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2015, 12:51:54 PM »
With the Golf Industry Show in San Antonio, it's hardly surprising that Brad and Adam both detoured by a course that's opening later this year.  I'm far from Tiger-obsessed, but how many new courses are opening this year?  Easy to see why it's news. 

And, with two positive reports, maybe the course is worth talking about.

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brad Klein's Glowing Review of Tiger's Bluejack National
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2015, 01:16:11 PM »


[/quote]

Gib_Papazian

Re: Brad Klein's Glowing Review of Tiger's Bluejack National
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2015, 06:19:42 PM »
One thing that comes to mind is the timing of this. Personally, I think the Tiger we knew is gone - oh, he might back into a tournament or two over the next few years, but the day of dick-slapping the rest of the field has been over a long time. Nobody aside from Bernhard Langer ever came back from a true case of the putting yips and getting past the chipping yips is 10x as difficult. You can reboot the brain and overcome the yips in practice or playing casual rounds, but once the tourniquet starts to rotate, there is no place to hide the herpes sores.

And somewhere in the deepest recesses of Tiger's mind, far behind the black curtain, he knows it.

Trying to recover from more physical injuries than Bill Glasson (whether from 'roids or not) and then having to tackle a complete neurological breakdown ain't gonna happen. I am sorry, but nobody - not even Ben Hogan - was ever able to permanently put the yips in a little box and bury it so deep it does not pop out of the grave on Sunday at Augusta.

Rolling the ball with a putter is one action - and can be accomplished many different ways, including flipping it over and batting from the port side. But there is no way in hell - again, with a gun to your head on national television - to erase that involuntary twitch with a wedge out of an infinite number of lies and situations. Not even with Tiger's genius level I.Q.

So, what does a highly intelligent guy do when his clubs no longer can do the talking for him? Putting aside all Tiger's bullshit that he wants privacy and to be left alone and blah blah fucking blah, he's not going to slink off and play video games waiting for his designated blonde to get back from collecting another World Cup. Maybe Tiger can lobby to be Ryder Cup Captain, uh yeah.

Tiger HAS to remain relevant, he HAS to reinvent himself; the idea of living the next 40 years as a fallen colossus is also not happening. He is not particularly personable or engaging - and trying to reemerge as some kind of 1st Tee champion of racial equality isn't going to fly too well with a honky girlfriend and being a perma-target of writers like Dan Jenkins.

The easiest path to softening his image as a philandering sexual sociopath is to design fun, accessible golf courses for everyman. You know, the same schnooks who yelled "You da Man Tiger!" - or who rolled that rock out of his way as if he needed extra help with that four shot lead. If a limey prick like Nick Faldo can rehabilitate his image, Tiger can too.

That SOB is smarter than all of us and I guarantee when he was standing over that drafting table, he knew if that golf course ended up a super-difficult Nicklaus abortion it would only underscore what an arrogant twat he was when the sky was raining jewels and the ball found the hole even when he misread the putt.

The ledger almost always balances out in the end . . . . . . how ironic if the most fearsome shotmaker of the modern era designed a string of courses  that did not require straight driving or a fancy short game.    
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 10:29:41 AM by Gib Papazian »

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brad Klein's Glowing Review of Tiger's Bluejack National
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2015, 06:29:06 PM »
You obviously can't judge a golf course by just looking at a couple of pictures but when LINKS Magazine showed pics of the Woods and Nicklaus courses at Diamante a few issues back, Woods' course looked much more intriguing to me.   Compared to the Nicklaus course, Woods' course showed a distinct lack of mounding or artificial features.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brad Klein's Glowing Review of Tiger's Bluejack National
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2015, 07:05:38 PM »
After reading Gib's post I realize more than ever that TW in the design business is not about building fun playable golf courses.  It's all about his brand and what it bring to lot sales at a RE development.  That's fine but understand that and let the marketing buzz begin.  I m sure it is a good golf course because I have used the same shapers a few times and they do great work.  I'm sure his team is very good but again if you guys are looking for fun playable golf there's plenty of places to play it....
One only starts talking these types of projects if it's real estate or there is plenty of marketing money.  these are former Discovery Land guys and they know what they are doing. that's why they hired him.  If I had been hired to tear up a C&C course the story would read much much differently.  Just accept it for what it is and hope that the next wave of golf development learns from the past.   :) :)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brad Klein's Glowing Review of Tiger's Bluejack National
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2015, 07:37:05 PM »
You obviously can't judge a golf course by just looking at a couple of pictures but when LINKS Magazine showed pics of the Woods and Nicklaus courses at Diamante a few issues back, Woods' course looked much more intriguing to me.   Compared to the Nicklaus course, Woods' course showed a distinct lack of mounding or artificial features.

There isn't a Nicklaus course at Diamante
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Matthew Sander

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brad Klein's Glowing Review of Tiger's Bluejack National
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2015, 09:42:05 AM »
There isn't a Nicklaus course at Diamante


Maybe David was referring to the Quivira course close by??

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brad Klein's Glowing Review of Tiger's Bluejack National
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2015, 10:28:07 AM »
He was, the Nicklaus' course is right next door.
The Tiger course at Diamante is not going to be one that "launches" a golfer into significance in he architecture feild though.
He has some ways to go as far as that is concerned.
For one he has to establish an identity for himself as an architect and neither of the first two courses are going to establish that.
Not that I am saying one could expect that from your first two projects, especially when learning the business and working with two ex Fazio guys who clearly have their own identity isuues to worry about.

But the first two projects are both delivering what the client wanted, that I would think is a good start.
What will be very interesting is Tigers next course at Diamante, similar terrain to El Cardonal, similar vegetation etc, how will that differ and how much more of a stamp can Tiger put upon thatland.
One thing I do know for certain is that he is taking this very seriously, is very hands on and is not prepared to be name only.

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brad Klein's Glowing Review of Tiger's Bluejack National
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2015, 11:26:50 AM »
Gib's post should bypass Pulitzer and proceed directly to Nobel!

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brad Klein's Glowing Review of Tiger's Bluejack National
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2015, 11:31:24 AM »
Gib's post should bypass Pulitzer and proceed directly to Nobel!


I agree most entertaining on this snowy morning in Arkansas.

Jeff Shelman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brad Klein's Glowing Review of Tiger's Bluejack National
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2015, 11:52:59 AM »
According to The Google, the club will be private.

Benjamin Litman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brad Klein's Glowing Review of Tiger's Bluejack National
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2015, 01:15:33 PM »
Just like that, Joe Passov posts a new article about El Cardonal, noting that it has received almost uniformly rave reviews.

This nugget stood out:  "Woods and his team of former Tom Fazio associates, Beau Welling and Shane Robichaud, plus his own design chief, Bryon Bell, have tabbed the design style as 'Old California,' with strategies and bunkering that pay homage to the Golden State's Golden Age classics, such as Riviera, Bel-Air and Los Angeles Country Club."

http://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/tiger-woods-course-architect-promising-start
"One will perform in large part according to the circumstances."
-Director of Recruitment at Agahozo-Shalom Youth Village in Rwanda on why it selects orphaned children without regard to past academic performance. Refreshing situationism in a country where strict dispositionism might be expected.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brad Klein's Glowing Review of Tiger's Bluejack National
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2015, 02:04:01 PM »
Gib: Or maybe Tiger was told that even with his name on the course if it is too tough folks won't buy the houses. Tiger might be getting a piece of the real estate deal instead of a big upfront fee.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brad Klein's Glowing Review of Tiger's Bluejack National
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2015, 02:22:24 PM »
Gib: Or maybe Tiger was told that even with his name on the course if it is too tough folks won't buy the houses. Tiger might be getting a piece of the real estate deal instead of a big upfront fee.

how about both?

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brad Klein's Glowing Review of Tiger's Bluejack National
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2015, 02:43:38 PM »
........his own design chief, Bryon Bell, have tabbed the design style as 'Old California'......

Any relation to those Old Californians, Billy Bell and Billy Bell Jr.?
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Marc Haring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brad Klein's Glowing Review of Tiger's Bluejack National
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2015, 05:25:59 PM »
One thing that comes to mind is the timing of this. Personally, I think the Tiger we knew is gone - oh, he might back into a tournament or two over the next few years, but the day of dick-slapping the rest of the field has been over a long time. Nobody aside from Bernhard Langer ever came back from a true case of the putting yips and getting past the chipping yips is 10x as difficult. You can reboot the brain and overcome the yips in practice or playing casual rounds, but once the tourniquet starts to rotate, there is no place to hide the herpes sores.

And somewhere in the deepest recesses of Tiger's mind, far behind the black curtain, he knows it.

Trying to recover from more physical injuries than Bill Glasson (whether from 'roids or not) and then having to tackle a complete neurological breakdown ain't gonna happen. I am sorry, but nobody - not even Ben Hogan - was ever able to permanently put the yips in a little box and bury it so deep it does not pop out of the grave on Sunday at Augusta.

Rolling the ball with a putter is one action - and can be accomplished many different ways, including flipping it over and batting from the port side. But there is no way in hell - again, with a gun to your head on national television - to erase that involuntary twitch with a wedge out of an infinite number of lies and situations. Not even with Tiger's genius level I.Q.

So, what does a highly intelligent guy do when his clubs no longer can do the talking for him? Putting aside all Tiger's bullshit that he wants privacy and to be left alone and blah blah fucking blah, he's not going to slink off and play video games waiting for his designated blonde to get back from collecting another World Cup. Maybe Tiger can lobby to be Ryder Cup Captain, uh yeah.

Tiger HAS to remain relevant, he HAS to reinvent himself; the idea of living the next 40 years as a fallen colossus is not happening. He is not particularly personable or engaging - and trying to reemerge as some kind of 1st Tee champion of racial equality isn't going to fly too well with a honky girlfriend and being a perma-target of writers like Dan Jenkins.

The easiest path to softening his image as a philandering sexual sociopath is to design fun, accessible golf courses for everyman. You know, the same schnooks who yelled "You da Man Tiger!" - or who rolled that rock out of his way as if he needed extra help with that four shot lead. If a limey prick like Nick Faldo can rehabilitate his image, Tiger can too.

That SOB is smarter than all of us and I guarantee when he was standing over that drafting table, he knew if that golf course ended up a super-difficult Nicklaus abortion it would only underscore what an arrogant twat he was when the sky was raining jewels and the ball found the hole even when he misread the putt.

The ledger almost always balances out in the end . . . . . . how ironic if the most fearsome shotmaker of the modern era designed a string of courses  that did not require straight driving or a fancy short game.    


Dear Gib

Can I sate in the strongest terms that I take extreme offence to you describing Sir Nick Faldo as a "Limey Prick".

The word Limey is an archaic term that references our past when as pirates we consumed limes in order to offset scurvy. Apart from that and for a former colonist I will concede that you have a good grasp of our language.

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