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Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #50 on: January 23, 2015, 08:20:09 PM »
John....  A Legend in his own mind!

Don,

You mentioned retention of precip and rainwater harvesting.  Dye's Kampen Course at Purdue brags of their system of reclaiming ground water for irrigation use.  Are there many courses with a similar system in place?

Ken

Mark Pavy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #51 on: January 23, 2015, 08:20:47 PM »
I will proudly stand before my God, family and peers and declare that no man knows what I like more than me. I am the finest mind in golf. The Goat. The greatest of all time.

And does your finest mind understand why you like what you like.....is it nature or nurture?

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #52 on: January 23, 2015, 08:35:02 PM »
The only point in being an expert is to get free shit, pull down a paycheck or get a nod from your peers. It's a self serving exercise.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #53 on: January 23, 2015, 10:36:59 PM »
The Goat. The greatest of all time.

Glad to see someone else singing the praises of The Goat. ;)
I'd say that makes you an expert
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #54 on: January 23, 2015, 10:48:48 PM »
John Kirk,
I believe how an architect chooses to drain a course has a huge impact on how well it is perceived and it has a lot to do with how macro drainage is tied into micro drainage - think storm drainage serving golf drainage.

As much as guys like me talk about things like standardization in golf design, the underlying drainage plan is one place I see a lot of variance from one architect to another. Some like ditches, others want to get it into a pipe ASAP. Some will rainwater harvest, most just want to get it away from the site as quickly as possibly.  Good golf drainage design is a lot more than not seeing a low wet spot.
I think when we are criticizing courses here, if we peeled away layers, we'd find what we are really criticizing is the way a course is drained.  
Don,
Wouldn't you agree that drainage is rarely discussed on well drained courses.    :) :) :)

Ok..  ;D


but seriously, don't you think that how an architect feels about using drainge has a big impact on his overall design ethos?
I would say it is the base.  It enters the equation starting with the routing....I might even go so far as to say on a piece of property that is not flat it should determine the routing if it is to be a minimal course....IMHO
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #55 on: January 23, 2015, 10:54:45 PM »

I don't think we've had the conversation about the chronically soggy course that could be so much better with proper drainage.  It's probably too sensitive a topic.


Or how bout we change it to this:  I don't think we've had the conversation about the poorly drained  course that could be so much better if properly routed for golf. It's probably too sensitive a topic.  :)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #56 on: January 24, 2015, 07:10:59 AM »
On the drainage topic we could start with something like Pinehurst #2 and work our way down from there. Greatly improving golf all over, increasing sustainability and saving clubs millions for the future, not to mention preserving water.
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #57 on: January 24, 2015, 10:59:28 AM »
My point in bringing up drainage is that a great architect knows that good drainage is a significant factor in the success of his design.  And that drainage is something most of us seldom consider when looking at the quality of a course.

(I'm certainly not qualified to speak to drainage - I'm an InfoSec guy :)  )

Peter Pallotta

Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #58 on: January 24, 2015, 11:09:20 AM »
JK is right about this - i.e. that the rubber hits the road (re this thread/question) only when we start naming names. Here are some:

Peter P (me)

Don M

Sear A

Jim K

Bradley K

Mike Y

Jeff B

Ran M

How would you, personally, rate or rank these posters in terms of their expertise? Of course, put me last -- and that's no false modesty. But then ask yourself why you rate/rank these posters the way you did, and you'll probably get a much better sense of what you expect from an 'expert,' and what for you qualifies as expertise. Until then it's just one conventional/consensus opinion after another, one platitude after another.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 11:16:36 AM by PPallotta »

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #59 on: January 24, 2015, 11:24:51 AM »
JK is right about this - i.e. that the rubber hits the road (re this thread/question) only when we start naming names. Here are some:

Peter P (me)

Don M

Brian S

Sear A

Jim K

Bradley K

Mike Y

Jeff B

Ran M

How would you, personally, rate or rank these posters in terms of their expertise? Of course, put me last -- and that's no false modesty. But then ask yourself why you rate/rank these posters the way you did, and you'll probably get a much better sense of what you expect from an 'expert,' and what for you qualifies as expertise. Until then it's just one conventional/consensus opinion after another, one platitude after another.

Peter


What area of expertise are we ranking them by? 

If its expertise on the study of courses in GB&I, Arble is the go to guy.  If its the construction of irrigation and drainage systems, Don wins.  If its research into golf history, Jim is the top of the list.

Each of those subject matters is part of the larger field of golf course architecture, and depending on what you're discussing one subset may be more important than another in a particular conversation.

Context is important.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #60 on: January 24, 2015, 11:24:57 AM »
Peter - you're not last - I am !

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #61 on: January 24, 2015, 12:56:04 PM »
Pietro

I wouldn't consider myself an expert...not by a long shot.  I think one has to at least have a very good understanding of the history behind each of the courses played to be an expert on courses.  I also think one should play each course they are an "expert" on several times...no easy feat.  Using this criteria I doubt there is anybody who is an expert of GB&I, USA or whatever.  We need to narrow it down much further, sort of like Joe does for Philly, but I don't get the sense he really knows all his courses well enough to call himself an expert.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #62 on: January 24, 2015, 02:50:51 PM »
If one spends five years at a drafting table in a signature office and maybe once a month or maybe every two months gets to go on site then I don't consider that near the practical experience of a guy that understands the drafting but is living on the site and "creating" everyday.

Mike,

You trot this out every few months and I laugh each time - it's out of touch with reality.
You realize that person no longer exists right - haven't for about five years now.
Digital work is generally outsourced or done personally because "the office" does not exist.
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #63 on: January 24, 2015, 02:51:03 PM »
I will almost always ask a person why he likes or dislikes a course.  The answer tells a lot about what the person likes and dislikes.  However, sometimes the answers have nothing to do with the architecture of the golf course.
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #64 on: January 24, 2015, 04:02:12 PM »
If one spends five years at a drafting table in a signature office and maybe once a month or maybe every two months gets to go on site then I don't consider that near the practical experience of a guy that understands the drafting but is living on the site and "creating" everyday.

Mike,

You trot this out every few months and I laugh each time - it's out of touch with reality.
You realize that person no longer exists right - haven't for about five years now.
Digital work is generally outsourced or done personally because "the office" does not exist.

Ian,
Happy New Year.  I didn't realize I trotted it out that often but I do think you are right.  But would you agree  that for the last 25 years that person was around for a good many of those years.    And I don't think some of the schools have made that clear to some....
R u coming south in April?
Mike
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #65 on: January 25, 2015, 03:30:37 AM »
If one spends five years at a drafting table in a signature office and maybe once a month or maybe every two months gets to go on site then I don't consider that near the practical experience of a guy that understands the drafting but is living on the site and "creating" everyday.

Mike,

You trot this out every few months and I laugh each time - it's out of touch with reality.
You realize that person no longer exists right - haven't for about five years now.
Digital work is generally outsourced or done personally because "the office" does not exist.

Ian,
Happy New Year.  I didn't realize I trotted it out that often but I do think you are right.  But would you agree  that for the last 25 years that person was around for a good many of those years.    And I don't think some of the schools have made that clear to some....
R u coming south in April?
Mike

That person is still alive and well in some of the practices in Europe.

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #66 on: January 25, 2015, 06:07:30 PM »
I've been mulling this one over for a few days and come to the conclusion that there's a number of different sets of qualities which might qualify an individual as being an 'expert' in gca.
There's the historical expert, who might have researched courses and architects of ye olden days and produced theses or books based upon that. There's greenkeeping/agronomy experts who will have years of experience in maintaining/improving the playing conditions at their course for the benefit of their members and perhaps even for the good of the planet in ecological terms. There's people who will have studied for academic qualifications in various related subjects who will have knowledge of the science or engineering or construction of golf courses. There's people in related professions who will have developed specialised knowledge in the subject for their work. Lawyers, accountants, property guys and so on.
I think one of the issues is that GCA isn't regarded in the same terms as the traditional professions. In order to call yourself an architect, a surgeon, a lawyer or an accountant, you have to reach an acceptable standard in your subject. Any eedjit can set themselves up as a golf course architect. Luckily, reputation and reference are still used as benchmarks, so we're not totally surrounded by poor design. Although, there's still enough around to suggest that the so-called experts, erm, aren't.
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #67 on: January 25, 2015, 06:26:43 PM »
'It's a profession that demands a rare blend of characteristics: the heart of an artist, the mind of an engineer, and the soul of a golfer. Alister MacKenzie


Absolutely, Mr. MacKenzie.

And whilst I firmly believe that you can enhance the experience of any golfer by providing a little grounding, I'm not so sure that you can every really teach the artist side of things, hence you can't 'make' an expert.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

BCowan

Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #68 on: January 25, 2015, 06:35:25 PM »
Glad to see someone else singing the praises of The Goat. ;)
I'd say that makes you an expert
[/quote]

Jeff,

    Must be another Goat, Jkava doesn't play anywhere East of Cleveland.  ;)

Bruce Wellmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #69 on: January 25, 2015, 06:41:57 PM »
Glad to see someone else singing the praises of The Goat. ;)
I'd say that makes you an expert

Jeff,

    Must be another Goat, Jkava doesn't play anywhere East of Cleveland.  ;)
[/quote]

Not necessarily true.
Take next Sunday for example.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA? New
« Reply #70 on: January 25, 2015, 07:10:56 PM »
 ???

Couldn't you be an expert on architecture and not be  an architect . I'm quite sure many here qualify. in some regard whether it be history or knowledge of certain techniques employed by the architects themselves .
« Last Edit: January 25, 2015, 09:11:17 PM by archie_struthers »

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #71 on: January 25, 2015, 07:52:32 PM »
Expertise comes from study and mastery from real world experience.  I suppose battle tested experience.

Among others, Tom Doak has expertise.  Mike Young has expertise and Brad Klein has expertise.  Lebron James does too. All worked very hard to develop expertise from a good talent base.

Never mistake passion for expertise.  Experts can have passion (and usually do), but non experts can have passion without expertise.

99% of people with opinions are passionate to some degree, experts are usually the other 1%. 

I wouldn't hire a person passionate about roofing to shingle my house.  I'd call a guy that knows it cold, and has done it before.


Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #72 on: January 25, 2015, 08:23:53 PM »

I think one of the issues is that GCA isn't regarded in the same terms as the traditional professions. In order to call yourself an architect, a surgeon, a lawyer or an accountant, you have to reach an acceptable standard in your subject. Any eedjit can set themselves up as a golf course architect. Luckily, reputation and reference are still used as benchmarks, so we're not totally surrounded by poor design. Although, there's still enough around to suggest that the so-called experts, erm, aren't.
F.
I can make it real simple....

I a guy can make a living designing and building golf courses without depending on trust funds or wife's job then maybe he is an expert.   ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Peter Pallotta

Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #73 on: January 25, 2015, 08:25:12 PM »
Sven, Martin - your perspective is valid of course, and defensible. But is that how we really think about expertise in other fields? If I asked you about the world's leading expert on brain surgery, would you break it down into component parts and suggest that we also determine/highlight the person who handles the anesthetics, and the journalist who wrote a history about the early days, and the briliant young intern who assists?
Peter

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #74 on: January 25, 2015, 08:40:39 PM »
And I don't think some of the schools have made that clear to some....
R u coming south in April?

I've gone from 45 resumes in 2008 to 7 last year.
They now come from people who have never worked in the industry only ...  :  )

Unless you count San Diego - no, I'm staying put this winter.
I still hasn't snowed!!!
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

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