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David Davis

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What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« on: January 22, 2015, 08:27:07 AM »
In the thread Dissecting the Melbourne Sandbelt there has been a fair amount of discussion with regards to comments made by a rater upon their first visit to the sandbelt. Tom perhaps correctly pointed out he is very hesitant to take someone's advice just because they have played a list of courses, regardless whether it's the Top 100 list or any other. I certainly agree with this point. However I'm curious for most of you what in your minds qualifies someone as an expert, who's opinion do you listen to or give more weight to?

Is this only successful architects? Editors, writers, rankers? Is this only our GCA peer group that devote their spare time to this passion? What qualification are necessary for you? Getting paid to work in the industry? Seeing x number of courses, reading x number of books? 10,000 hours of experience?

I'm curious if there is any consensus here.
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

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Joe Hancock

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Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2015, 09:09:48 AM »
Interesting question, as it made me ask myself if the subject matter requires such a subjective opinion as to whether something is good or not.....but....

In asking opinions about architecture, the one thing that would build trust for me would be repetitive, well informed opinions from the same source. In other words, a friend or colleague who has seen a lot and is smarter than me....the second aspect being far easier to fulfill!

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

RJ_Daley

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Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2015, 09:50:59 AM »
I'm of the point of view that as an analogy,  "just because you are a fat guy, you aren't a culinary expert" and rating chefs and their cuisine doesn't make you a valid "expert" critic solely because you like their food.  Like an epicurean and gourmet, you can luxuriate in fine food and drink.  But, to be an expert, I think you have to have trained knowledge from a valid culinary school, and have worked in a valid chef environment.  Yet, I think you can be well traveled and have developed a keen sense of taste and self studied to the point you have a place in a conversation about rating great dining experiences.  It is just that extra measure of real culinary training in techniques of the culinary profession that puts one in the realm of "expert".

So, with GCA, we can be a gourmet, connoisseur, and be well traveled to have seen many courses, and be a good player will add to one's skill set to evaluate and rate courses based on those tastes, but again to enter the realm of expert, I think one needs formal training in design and construction techniques and the practical knowledge of design and creating the field of play.  Understanding he other key component to how the architecture functions also takes study of turf to some degree, IMO. 

For instance, a rater, gourmand sort of consumer who evaluates and discusses GCA on a forum like this can see an area on a golf course that negatively effects the strategy, function and interest in a golf hole design and realize it doesn't work because for instance it is routed poorly, and leads to a poor and critical collection area of water, and forces a limited strategy and skill set to play the golf hole.  One can observe the problem, know it is poor design, but still not be able to critique why the architect is not up to best design practices, because the untrained can't really evaluate the infrastructure issues like what the scope of costs of material to drain, alternatives to how to engineer the problem are a consideration, including the characteristics of the soils and what mechanical usage might have been more effective.  That may be splitting hairs, but that is what a real trained "expert" can do, that the rater gourmet can't, generally speaking.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Terry Lavin

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Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2015, 10:30:57 AM »
To me, an expert is somebody who has both academic and practical experience in a given field.  Expertise in golf course architecture is something that certainly be augmented by academic pursuit, but I don't think that would be a requirement.  Exhibit #1 there would be Bill Coore, who was never educated in any subject that could be linked to his current profession.  So putting academic issues aside, I would think that an expert in this field would have to be somebody who has done actual work in the field, whether it be as a designer of golf courses, somebody who has experience in renovating golf courses or somebody who has experiences in developing golf courses as an owner.  There is also a subset of people who have developed an expertise in this field through the art of criticism.  I would put Bradley Klein in this group, although he got his shoes very dirty in his collaboration on Old Macdonald, so he now has the practical work as well.  Same with Golf's Most Beloved Figure and Tommy Naccarato.  As for experience that would NOT qualify expertise, I would list active participation on this forum and work as a rater for a golf magazine that rates golf courses.  To me, that would equate being a rock critic with being a rock star.  We are just hobbyists, except for the smattering of truly expert professionals that grace us with their opinions.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2015, 10:55:14 AM by Terry Lavin »
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jason Thurman

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Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2015, 10:40:54 AM »
Dick and His Honor nailed it. There are about ten real GCA experts posting on this site, give or take a few. They're the guys who can build a course and actually know what they talk about.

There are also a handful of golf course architecture history experts. Ran, Chris Buie, Sven, Moriarty and a handful of other guys who consistently make valuable new finds that legitimize our niche subject and elevate it to something reasonably scholarly. Most of the rest of us fall somewhere on the spectrum between noisy groupthinker and eager, well-informed student.

We seem to often confuse having a certain set of tastes in everything from golf courses to golf bags with expertise. Course recommendations are more a matter of taste than a matter of expertise. Roger Ebert was an expert on film history, but his evaluation of Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid is still a big whiff. I had an American literature professor who knew seemingly everything about seemingly every work of 20th century American lit and was far more of an expert than I, even though she liked Fitzgerald, hated Hemingway, and didn't think Invisible Man was the greatest American novel ever written. The fact that guys like Sven and Tom Doak are smarter than me doesn't mean that I'll always agree with their course recommendations. But that's little consolation for my own ignorance, as they still know much more about this subject than almost all of the rest of us.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

RJ_Daley

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Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2015, 11:15:00 AM »
Yes, I'll also observe that qualifying the expert with the threshold criteria of formal education is not solely academic learning.  I think apprenticeship, such as Coore and the entire bevy of apprentices under a seminal teacher and design-construction enterprise like Dye's, qualifies in my mind as formal 'training' in the dirt and all that.

I also didn't consider the other wing of expertise that Jason points to, that being the expert historical researcher that helps us to describe and preserve GCA theory, philosophy, technique and style.  My impression of what would constitute and expert there is also some aspect of academic training or rigor.  Yes, we can all go to the library and look things up.  But, those that do this as an academic, or related professional, know techniques and develop a skill set to wade through B.S. vs credible sources.  It seems to me we have all seen that issue play out in certain authentication research on multiple subjects on GCA over the years.  I think some of us have been taken in and deceived or at least misinformed due to not having enough understanding or experience with authenticating historical research sources.  Even he 'experts' have bloody sharp disagreements.  I think that the academic experts from many fields of study have demonstrated just how much of a blood sport academic debate can become...  ;D

But, just on the question of calling a person expert at historical research, I'd tend to give more credibility and consideration to the person that has done deep research, knows how to navigate arcane sources and resources, over the guy that collects select subject books and glances at them for a reference now and then.   The resources on the Internet and how to access them seems like it has up'd that game by leaps and bounds. 

And isn't if funny that we as interested consumers of the subject can read two sides of a hot academic debate from those we see as having "expert" credential and still at the end of the day would tend to side with one or the other, despite not being expert enought ourselves. 

Maybe there are no "experts". ..... drifting into navel gazing now.   ::) ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2015, 11:49:58 AM »
I'll take a shot at it:

1. Wide experience.

2. A discerning eye.

3. Practical knowledge.

Lots of 1's and 2's in this group. Not so many 3's.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Mike_Young

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Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2015, 11:51:59 AM »
'It's a profession that demands a rare blend of characteristics: the heart of an artist, the mind of an engineer, and the soul of a golfer. Alister MacKenzie

The above is a pretty good description of having a basis for being an expert.  I think you need 10,000 of actually doing added to the above and you should be there.  However, I also don't think there is really a profession of golf architecture.  I think courses are built.  There are guys that build courses and don't understand the strategies and yet fully understand the technical aspects and then there are those who understand strategies and have no idea of the technical aspects etc...I think the blend of all is what MacKenzie is saying....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

David_Tepper

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Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2015, 12:10:45 PM »
Doesn't 10,000 gca.com posts make you an expert? :D

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2015, 12:26:07 PM »
'It's a profession that demands a rare blend of characteristics: the heart of an artist, the mind of an engineer, and the soul of a golfer. Alister MacKenzie


Damn near matches my list of three (A discerning eye = the heart of an artist; Practical knowledge = the mind of an engineer; Wide experience = the soul of a golfer).

That Mackenzie fellow was a genius!

Of course, he said it better, alas.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Peter Pallotta

Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2015, 12:44:58 PM »
I think Ran's efforts to raise the quality of the discussion board misguided. The qualitative differences between the vast majority of posts here is actually negligible when compared to/in the context of genuine expertise*. Thinking that by culling or eliminatng the so-called worst of the threads/posts you will enhance the quality of the discussion board is like believing that you'll have more water to drink if it's in a smaller glass. You won't, of course -- only more water will better satisfy your thirst. But I suppose the useful thing about the smaller glass is that it makes clear how little water you actually have.
Peter

* You'll say that I'm begging the question, and that what is being discussed here is what constitutes such genuine expertise. But really, do you actually have any doubts? Do you actually find yourself wondering who the genuine experts on the art and craft of gca really are?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2015, 12:59:43 PM by PPallotta »

David Ober

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Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2015, 12:48:57 PM »
Like art critics and music critics, there really is only one prerequisite for being an expert at GCA, in my opinion: Experience. Both playing-wise (have you played hundreds and hundreds of courses?) and knowledge-wise (have you read and studied the craft?).

But those are just pre-requisites and they don't, in an of themselves, make someone an expert.

Terry Lavin

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Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2015, 01:13:15 PM »
Doesn't 10,000 gca.com posts make you an expert? :D

You'd better pick up the pace!   ;D
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

JMEvensky

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Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2015, 01:15:25 PM »
Everybody posting here thinks they're an expert--but some experts are more equal than others.

Blake Conant

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Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2015, 01:20:34 PM »
'It's a profession that demands a rare blend of characteristics: the heart of an artist, the mind of an engineer, and the soul of a golfer. Alister MacKenzie

This is a Herbert Warren Wind quote from the foreword of a more recent edition of MacKenzie's "Golf Architecture".  Regardless of the quoter, the quote is a good one.  

Tim_Weiman

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Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2015, 01:43:05 PM »
David,

Good question. My goal has always been to be a student, not someone who fancies himself as an expert.

Golf architecture is a hobby, a passion and a true love, but not my profession. A bit of modesty helps one be a better student.

Aside from that I can't help tell a story about one of our best known members of GCA, Tommy Naccarato, who recommended I join the site after hanging out at the old Traditionalgolf.com back in the 1990's.

Several years ago I had the wonderful opportunity to play Rec Park in Long Beach, CA with Tommy, something I always wanted to do having lived in Long Beach for about five years and playing the course countless times.

But, Tommy was amazing. I thought I knew the course pretty darn well. No way. Not compared to Tommy who pointed out many things I walked over many, many times without ever seeing.

Imagine that. Playing a course a couple hundred times and someone comes along and points out all sorts of things you never saw!

Tommy is a student, not just because of the time spent at the old Ralph Miller Library at Industry Hills, but because of his eye.

Just being a good student takes a lot of time.
Tim Weiman

Marty Bonnar

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Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2015, 01:50:41 PM »
I'm afraid that the rather unedifying events which took place around here last year, led me to come to the rather sad conclusion that there are far fewer experts in the field than we/they would like to think.
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Mike_Young

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Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2015, 01:57:43 PM »
'It's a profession that demands a rare blend of characteristics: the heart of an artist, the mind of an engineer, and the soul of a golfer. Alister MacKenzie

This is a Herbert Warren Wind quote from the foreword of a more recent edition of MacKenzie's "Golf Architecture".  Regardless of the quoter, the quote is a good one.  
Blake,
Sorry bout that....I knew it was somewhere in the MacKenzie book..
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2015, 01:58:59 PM »
Doesn't 10,000 gca.com posts make you an expert? :D

You'd better pick up the pace!   ;D

I'm at SD status  hoping to get those 10,000 post to Expert soon...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2015, 02:03:59 PM »
Can't speak to what makes an expert.

What I look for when assessing someone's opinion is some sort of context. Are they an actual architect, have them been involved with building or maintaining a course? If not, what are their thoughts on courses we may have both played? Or what are their thoughts on well known courses?

I'm more interested in the opinions of people who share similar thoughts/views to mine (though I will also seek out those who are diametrically opposed, to learn from them). I know many will find this closed minded, but I don't much care for the open minded approach, as I think it evinces a lack of critical thinking, an unwillingness to commit to principles.

Any idiot can be open minded. Sometimes discriminating can be a good thing.

 :)
« Last Edit: January 22, 2015, 02:06:17 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Ryan Coles

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Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2015, 02:56:37 PM »
"Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't and done and why. Then do it.

PCCraig

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Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2015, 03:04:34 PM »
Much in the same way Bill Belichick is described as a 'genious' on ESPN, the term 'expert' is way overused on GCA.
H.P.S.

Mark McKeever

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Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2015, 04:14:24 PM »
Act like you know what you're talking about.  It works for some of the people posting on here!!   

;D

MM
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2015, 06:49:33 PM »
David - to really understand GCA, I think you need to understand drainage.   And I'm willing to bet that very few non-architects really understand drainage.

The rest of us are largely fanboys, which is great.   But I know I'm no expert.

David Kelly

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Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2015, 06:59:28 PM »
And I'm willing to bet that very few non-architects really understand drainage.

Definitely, and from what I've seen a few practicing architects don't as well.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

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