[John Kavanaugh]

Jud,

I hope you're not serious. The kikuyu rough at Riviera allows a perfectly simple recovery with the exception of #12. As a matter of reason the kikuyu around the greens makes a non spinning shot from the rough that much easier. I've played the Monday after the "L.A. Open" and don't even recall the rough being an issue. Fairways seem like zoysia and the rough plays like bermuda, it's all familiar. Riviera is clearly a one ball course.

[Mike Schott]

I can only remember one hole at Rustic but I recall every shot at Riviera. Rustic was a pioneer in the current value based minimalist movement. It is an important course but far short of a great one.

John, I don't know why that is other than RC does not meet the qualities you value in a course. For me, and I've only played Rustic Canyon once and probably will never again, I remember 3 or 4 holes. I will likely never play Riviera so I can't say if I'd feel like you. But for sure they are very different courses in concept. Riviera will never play firm and fast. There's certainly room for both.

Riviera gets a bum rap for reasons that are clear to me but would be objectionable for some to hear. I have played the course a number of times in all weather conditions. It plays firm and fast if that is the hand it has been dealt. It plays perfectly responsive after and during a rain. Kikuyu is a wonderful surface that only requires imagination to master.

I think Rustic is a good course, one that I played every time I visited L.A. I even took a buddy along once and it was the only course we played. I don't think it is in the same league as Lakeside or in the same universe as Riviera. The most simple explanation I can give is that if I were a member of Lakeside or Riviera I doubt that I would ever play Rustic again.   Another would be...If Rustic were great than every review wouldn't mention how affordable it is, that just wouldn't matter.   It's an Oris.

LOL! Nice reference. No doubt that Rustic can't compare to Riviera, LACC, Lakeside or the other classic archie courses in the LA area. But it's an easily accessible public track that costs less than $50.00 to walk (at least it did in 2012 when I played it). I'd say it's a Blancpain competing against Patek Phillipe and Lange.

[John Cowden]

Quote from: John Kavanaugh on Today at 05:54:33 PM
There isn't an architect in the world that wouldn't love for me to start this exact thread about them. This was simply a chance for Gil's fans to hit a softball out of the park. Sadly a few decided to take a swipe at me instead. Either way, Gil is the winner here.

Really?  Wow!  So every "architect in the world" would have JK diss them publicly with a hard swipe at their work, proclaiming their sole achievement is to "sell mediocre courses" to excellent clients?   

Isn't there a list for posters like this?

[John Kavanaugh]

J,

The question posed in this thread was perfect for the audience. I'm sure, another thread about an architect I don't really get..Pete Dye - Why the Love? could be as informative as this one. I also guarantee there is not a question I could pose that would either offend or concern Mr. Dye.

Like I have said above if I had known that Boston Golf Club was what it is I would have used a different opening. I asked an honest question and got some great answers.

Tom Fazio - Why the Love?
Jack Nicklaus - Why the Love?
Jeff Brauer - Why the Love?
Mike Devries- Why the Love?
David Kidd - Why the Love?

They could all be great fun, great for the architect and a learning experience for us. What's the problem?

ps. We already know why we love Doak and C&C so I really don't see the need.

[Carl Nichols]

John--
If Rustic was a private course in Pacific Palisades, with the clubhouse, history, exclusivity, and conditioning of Riviera; and if Riviera was an affordable public course in Moorpark, CA; would you view them as differently as you do?  This is a serious question that I don't have a view on--I've played neither, though I've been to both clubhouses.

[David Stamm]

I can only remember one hole at Rustic but I recall every shot at Riviera. Rustic was a pioneer in the current value based minimalist movement. It is an important course but far short of a great one.

John, I don't know why that is other than RC does not meet the qualities you value in a course. For me, and I've only played Rustic Canyon once and probably will never again, I remember 3 or 4 holes. I will likely never play Riviera so I can't say if I'd feel like you. But for sure they are very different courses in concept. Riviera will never play firm and fast. There's certainly room for both.

Riviera gets a bum rap for reasons that are clear to me but would be objectionable for some to hear. I have played the course a number of times in all weather conditions. It plays firm and fast if that is the hand it has been dealt. It plays perfectly responsive after and during a rain. Kikuyu is a wonderful surface that only requires imagination to master.

I think Rustic is a good course, one that I played every time I visited L.A. I even took a buddy along once and it was the only course we played. I don't think it is in the same league as Lakeside or in the same universe as Riviera. The most simple explanation I can give is that if I were a member of Lakeside or Riviera I doubt that I would ever play Rustic again.   Another would be...If Rustic were great than every review wouldn't mention how affordable it is, that just wouldn't matter.   It's an Oris.

LOL! Nice reference. No doubt that Rustic can't compare to Riviera, LACC, Lakeside or the other classic archie courses in the LA area. But it's an easily accessible public track that costs less than $50.00 to walk (at least it did in 2012 when I played it). I'd say it's a Blancpain competing against Patek Phillipe and Lange.

Lakeside? Are you kidding? Lakside does not come close to Rustic. Rustic has multiple holes that are categorically world class. Does Lakeside? I think not.


I think Carl is spot on. Too much emphasis is put on the exclusivity of a place on this thread rather than the merits of the course itself. Rustic represents the conditions that Thomas and Bell had in mind when they built Riviera. Thanks to  Gil and Geoff, LACC has recaptured the original design concept there.

[Jim Eder]

David,

Which holes at Rustic are "world class" in your opinion?

What would be the definition of "world class"? Can "world class" be different for different people?

I think you are spot on with the following:

"Too much emphasis is put on the exclusivity of a place on this thread rather than the merits of the course itself. Rustic represents the conditions that Thomas and Bell had in mind when they built Riviera. Thanks to  Gil and Geoff, LACC has recaptured the original design concept there."

To me Rustic and Lakeside (today) and Riv (today) are very different courses. I love them all. And LA North is nearly ideal. What is best? I don't know, does any one person really know?

I have a lot of respect for all the architects out there. It is not easy.

Thanks David.

[David Stamm]

David,

Which holes at Rustic are "world class" in your opinion?

What would be the definition of "world class"? Can "world class" be different for different people?

I think you are spot on with the following:

"Too much emphasis is put on the exclusivity of a place on this thread rather than the merits of the course itself. Rustic represents the conditions that Thomas and Bell had in mind when they built Riviera. Thanks to  Gil and Geoff, LACC has recaptured the original design concept there."

To me Rustic and Lakeside (today) and Riv (today) are very different courses. I love them all. And LA North is nearly ideal. What is best? I don't know, does any one person really know?

I have a lot of respect for all the architects out there. It is not easy.

Thanks David.

Jim, 13 is easliy one of the best par 5's in SoCal. It exceeds not only any of the par 5's at Lakside, but as they play NOW, IMHO, any at Riviera. 8 and 14 at LACC are at least it's equal and arguably superior.

I will now risk starting a massive firestorm: 3 at Rustic is more reminiscent of what Thomas and Bell had in mind than the way 10 Riviera plays NOW. The green has become too narrow at Riviera, more than what was originally intended. And since Riviera's 10th is universally considered world class, then....

14 is great hole. Cape tee shot and very stout from the back tees.

12 is ingenious. It took a while for me to come around to it's virtues. It's a sucker hole for the better player.

Pre flood, 7 looked to be world class. I think 6 and 10 are arguably world class.

[Jim Eder]

David,

Thank you.

13 at RC is a very good hole but really world class?  I do agree, 8 and 14 at LA North are superior. World class is a high bar at least to me. Is risk reward on 13 really world class? It is better than the Lakeside 5s.

Agree with your view on 3 at RC vs 10 at Riv.

14 is a very good hole, it is stout. There is a lot of room up there off the tee. Too much? 5 at Lakeside is pretty good (though not a cape).

12 is very interesting, it does grow on one after multiple plays.

6 and 10 might be a stretch to be world class. I guess it depends on the definition (or maybe I just do not get it just yet).

7 does sound like it was up there pre flood. It isn't too bad the way it is (though I am no expert).

Rustic is a terrific golf course, I love it. But world class is a pretty high bar. With that said, I could play it often (especially if it was less busy) and enjoy my golf there immensely.

Thanks David.

[David Stamm]

I would like to add in response to Jim's comments.

Lakside is at odds with itself. The membership has no intenton, as of now, of trying emulate what Behr had originally intended. They want to be a "parkland" course. Lakeside was never intended to be a "parkland" course (whatever that means). If the routing, original hazards and green sites have been compromised and a different "direction" has been embarked upon, I really can't see how it can truly be considered great. Is there potential greatness there? Probably.

LACC turned out great when Gil and Geoff were done with it because they did not attempt to make it a Gil and Geoff course. They intended to recapture what Thomas and Bell intended. Riviera suffers because, like Lakeside, but to a lesser extent, it has had things done to it, both intentional and unintentional, that inhibits the intended congruency of the overall course. Having said that, to show how great Riviera once was, it still manages to show glimpses of what it coold be. If Riviera took the same course of action as LACC, to recapture what Riviera once was, it could be top 10-15 in the country.

[Jim Eder]

David,

I agree. I WISH Lakeside would make the decision to go back to what the course was intended to be (or as close to it given the flood/Universal Studios/river issues). But in taking the cards I am dealt Lakeside is still interesting as a course to me (more precision needed today). I could play it very often but it is very different from the original design and of course RC. A lot of fun, interesting and thought provoking holes to me.

Agree with LA North but isn't that greatness? To put ego aside and truly restore a gem?

Agree with Riv as well. It would be cool but again it is not in the cards and it still is a very good golf course (in my opinion which is not worth much) even in today's form (again more precision needed). But what is really wrong with being forced to move the ball each way at different times as long as it is balanced?

I would add Bel Air to the list for a restoration but again probably not going to happen.

Finally, 10 at Riv. Given the length of the ball today (3 wood to the front of 10 in certain conditions) isn't a smaller green more interesting for risk reward? Lose it right, dead. Maybe laying up left is not so bad? Maybe the risk is too great today tipping the balance?

To get back to the intent of the thread, I have a lot of respect for Gil Hanse and have enjoyed his designs. They have made me think and want to come back and that for me is the defining point as to why I love his designs.

I would like to get your view of 5 at Lakeside at some point. That is one nice greensite to me.

Thanks David.

[Mark McKeever]

One doesn't need to look any further than Boston Golf Club when considering how talented Gil is.  The unique quirks and challenges presented to the golfer through the round are incredible.  It's a fun golf course for all, and can test the best players in the world from the back tees. 

Mark

[Dan Herrmann]

OK - here goes.

I'm fortunate enough to play one of his early designs, French Creek.   I absolutely love the course - it's an amazingly good member's course because it plays differently every day and always provides a great deal of fun.  Is it a course that you'd want to hole a major on - absolutely not, but I couldn't care less.

It encompasses my #1 factor in GCA - the sense of having been on a journey when you've completed 18.    Stuff you get at Dismal Red, Merion, Pine Valley, etc.   I'm NOT putting FC on that level - obviously those are great course by any measure.  FC has quirk, which I love, and Gil was probably constrained by the original project manager.  But year after year, rough edges are removed and continuous improvements are being made.  Plus - we have probably 5 trees in play on the entire course

But best of all, Gil is a very smart, kind, and skilled gentleman.   He and Jim Wagner have treated our little club with love and respect.   He's always been a complete gentleman every time I've been with him.     Class, class, class.

[Mark_Fine]

Gil Hanse helped get me into this business 12 years ago and has helped me throughout.  I still remember his words to me twelve years ago when we were having lunch, "If I can help someone in this business it means as much to me as anything else I can accomplish".  If you know Gil, you know he actually meant it!  He is a world class architect and a world class gentleman! 

[Alex Miller]

Here's something interesting, and I'll try not to come off like too much of a Rustic fanboy.

The holes David mentions, with the exception of 12, aren't even the ones that strike me as the best of the bunch. Of the three world class par 5 starters in LA (LACC, Riv, and Rustic) Rustic's might be the best of the bunch. The green is often overlooked as people are adapting to the canyon effect an speed of the day, but it's perfect. The layup options, enticing length of the hole, and the trench bunker make it an ideal starter. The second hole is phenomenal as well, utilizing the sloping green and hump in the middle to make the WIDE fairway play much smaller when trying to give yourself an approach that will yield a reasonable 2 putt. The 11th is stout and stunning, the 14th is one of the few modern dogleg par 4's that holds the scratch player to a true test (like Dismal Red's 13th). 16's green is up there with any of Ross's best saucers and the walk up to the tee is totally worth it IMO.

LA North is definitely the best course in SoCal, and I've played Riviera a couple times as well. Also walked the place for some of the PGA events, and the scale and setting is second to none. But Rustic is probably superior to Riviera in its current state, price and access aside. Riv just isn't conditioned to be everything it could be, and that's not their fault. I grew up playing Kikuyu but the limitations are undeniable.

But hey, that's just one guy's opinion (or is it?).

[Jim Franklin]

OK - here goes.

I'm fortunate enough to play one of his early designs, French Creek.   I absolutely love the course - it's an amazingly good member's course because it plays differently every day and always provides a great deal of fun.  Is it a course that you'd want to hole a major on - absolutely not, but I couldn't care less.

It encompasses my #1 factor in GCA - the sense of having been on a journey when you've completed 18.    Stuff you get at Dismal Red, Merion, Pine Valley, etc.   I'm NOT putting FC on that level - obviously those are great course by any measure.  FC has quirk, which I love, and Gil was probably constrained by the original project manager.  But year after year, rough edges are removed and continuous improvements are being made.  Plus - we have probably 5 trees in play on the entire course

But best of all, Gil is a very smart, kind, and skilled gentleman.   He and Jim Wagner have treated our little club with love and respect.   He's always been a complete gentleman every time I've been with him.     Class, class, class.

Dan -

I still need to play French Creek one day when I come up for a round at Stonewall. We need a home and home this spring.

And I will say Boston GC is a home run. Gil knocked it out of the park with that one.

[Michael Dugger]

Shoot, what he did for LACC is enough to be given young stud status in my book.

How many others got a crack at that place and only made it worse and worse.

And I'll never stop thinking his design at Prairie Club would have been better than Lehman's.

[JESII]

Of the 40 or 50 courses I've played around Philadelphia, the only ones ahead of Applebrook are Pine Valley, Merion, Aronimink, Huntingdon Valley...and a tie with Gulph Mills...on my 'would want to play again tomorrow' list.

And this was the ultimate softball...that so many people took offense (on Gil's behalf) indicates it's January and the northern hemisphere folks are wound a little tight...


Edit...make it 82 based on the GAP website...

Key exclusions that could change the list are Saucon Old, Lehigh and, it appears, French Creek.

[Dan Herrmann]

(Jim - I actually prefer French Creek to Applebrook, even though it's probably Gil's home course )

PS - Don't leave Jim Wagner out of this discussion.  He gets very, very high marks in my book

[JESII]

Which one do you think is Gil's home course? I haven't played French Creek so don't take it as a slight that I picked Applebrook...

[DMoriarty]

And this was the ultimate softball...that so many people took offense (on Gil's behalf) indicates it's January and the northern hemisphere folks are wound a little tight...

Softball or not, Kavanaugh's game is offensive.  He has been he trolling Hanse and particularly Rustic Canyon for over a decade now, much of it before he ever saw a Hanse course.  Over the years he's been all over the map with Hanse and Rustic, sometimes loving it and sometimes hating it, depending on whatever bait he was trailing at the time. (Anyone else remember all his site unseen bullshit about how Rustic was "poorly engineered" because it was damaged by a wildfire and record storms?)

He played Rustic with me over a half dozen times? Bullshit. The only sincere thing he's said in this thread is that he didn't mean whatever he told Tommy years ago.  He wasn't being honest about the architecture then, and it still isn't now.  It just Kavanaugh playing Kavanaugh games.

[Joe Hancock]

David,

I'm sorry, but I don't recollect all that offensive stuff. Maybe there are others who participate here who:

a) Don't know who is abrasive, or not, based on posters' previous posts

b) Haven't been here long enough to remember all that you remember

c) Would rather look for constructive points in regards to the thread title, setting aside personal afronts

I would rather this thread stay about Gil, Jim and their fine work, but it continues to come back around to a battle that apparently needs to be settled in front of the rest of us.

Let me know when someone wins.

Joe

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Joe

I think David's point is that this was a needless thread.  I distinctly remember Kavanaugh's criticism of the "engineering" of Rustic Canyon.
There are many other hints of criticism over the years.  It seems to me that it is proper to clarify when a person seems to have a personal issue with Rustic Canyon.  Especially when the administrator/founder of Golf Club Atlas thinks it is about as good as it gets.

[Joe Hancock]

Lynn,

You've likely helped highlight a trait of mine that is both a strength and a weakness; I have a poor memory.

Thanks for your insight, as I know that you, like David M. and others, are close to Rustic Canyon and their team in a way that most of us can't relate to. Things tend to be taken on a more personal level in those situations. I know I have my buttons that can be pushed as well.

I wonder if this would have been a very good thread had someone else intially posted something like:

I have seen a few of Gil's courses, yet I don't understand the greatness. Can anyone please help me out, as he seems to be on fire lately?

As it is, I think the thread has defined Gil and team in a very positive way. At least, that's how I see it from a distance.

Joe

[Joe Bausch]

I'll give you two of many reasons why I like Hanse's work.

Thanks to my friend Dan H for hosting me many times at French Creek:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/FrenchCreek/

And about four years ago in November I saw Applebrook for my first and only time.  I've culled the herd and re-processed this photo album today (I guess you could say it was 'Arble-ized, grin) and think it is fantastic:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/Applebrook/

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