[Ian Mackenzie]

Ian,

You'll be happy to know that my Chesapeake Bay Retriever spent every day of the first eight years of her life on the golf course with me, and at the age of twelve she is still alive and well.

Greg, that's great. I also know some 75 years olds who have smoked cigarettes for 50 years. Please, I am not telling anyone what to do with their pets. I'm also afraid of sharks, so perhaps just chalk me up to being overly cautious.

Steve, I did not form my opinion just by chance. Nor do I ever throw little jabs in forums. If you would like some more reference material to confirm or question your current views, then I offer you:

http://www.fetchacure.org/canines-cancer-golf-courses/

http://www.dogsbestlife.com/home-page/danger-lawn-chemicals-pose-threat-to-your-dogs-health/

http://www.golfdigest.com/images/magazine/2008/05/gd200805golfenvironment.pdf

http://eartheasy.com/blog/2012/03/8-common-household-chemicals-harming-your-pets-their-non-toxic-alternatives/

http://www.chem-tox.com/pesticides/pesticidereport.htm

[Ian Mackenzie]

This is a topic that is important to me as golf and dogs rank very highly on my priority list.
However, because of that, I choose to RARELY combine them. Let me explain.

I can only speak about the US, but - from being on our club's grounds and greens committe in the past - I know there are just too many chemicals on the grass that present a very clear health hazard to my beloved yellow lab. In short, the grass ain't that green purely due to Mother Nature.

I would LOVE to be able to walk and play with my dog but I only venture on the course with her before April 1 and after November 15 when all the growth regulators, fertilizers, grub spray, insecticides, etc, are no longer used.

True story: my wife and I visted my best friend's father 5years ago when I was back in my home town. He taught me the game when I was a kid. They live just off the 3rd green at a course in Princeton, NJ. I was petting their 4 year old golden retriever and felt a huge bump on its throat. The dog had a tumor and was given 6 months to live. The family went on to tell us that their last two dogs met a similar fate. We were shocked and could not believe that they still took their dog out on the course every day.

US golf courses are not places for dogs and small children!!

Ian,

Your post raises a number of alarming questions. The first that comes to mind is: "What the hell are you talking about?"

I too, would like to know which chemicals in use on U.S golf courses have been shown to cause cancer in dogs and small children. (Apparently, at 21 years of age, we humans arrive at some sort of immunity). Can you name one, single, documented case of a diagnosed cancer in either animals or people that is related to golf course chemicals in the past fifty years? This should be easy as you claim they "present a very clear health hazard". If that's the case, then greenkeepers should be dropping like flies.

In fact, could you name any study anywhere showing that proper use of approved pesticides on golf courses poses any health risk to anyone at all? One golden retriever  in New Jersey with a cancerous tumor doesn't prove anything. There was an eight year old boy in my kids' school who died from leukemia. He never set foot on a golf course. Perhaps we can conclude that classrooms are carcinogenic. 

I have two kids who have lived on a golf course all their lives and exposure to pesticides doesn't concern me in the least, but then I
know something about the subject.

"US golf courses are not places for dogs and small children!!"

This is the most egregiously ignorant statement I have ever read in all my years on this forum.

Greens keepers aren't dropping like flies anymore than pro golfers are coming down with melanoma. I would just like you to point to external data that cites what wonderful environments golf courses are for all household pets, especially dogs. If you and Chris are to be taken credibly, I'm sure you can easily provide reference data that supports your assertions. I have tried. Then again, I'm not trying to convert you. But perhaps others can pause to consider the risks.

http://www.mnn.com/family/pets/stories/how-lawn-chemicals-and-herbicides-affect-dogs

http://fightcaninecancer.com/lawnchemicals.html

http://www.pethealthandnutritioncenter.com/safe-lawns-dogs-cats.html

http://www.planetnatural.com/lawn-chemicals/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/what-to-know-before-you-spray-your-lawn-with-pesticides/2014/07/07/77d719a2-f63c-11e3-a606-946fd632f9f1_story.html

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/15_4/features/Canine-Malignant-Lymphoma-and-Lawn-Pesticides_20494-1.html

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2014/02/10/lawn-pesticides.aspx

[Rees Milikin]

This is a topic that is important to me as golf and dogs rank very highly on my priority list.
However, because of that, I choose to RARELY combine them. Let me explain.

I can only speak about the US, but - from being on our club's grounds and greens committe in the past - I know there are just too many chemicals on the grass that present a very clear health hazard to my beloved yellow lab. In short, the grass ain't that green purely due to Mother Nature.

I would LOVE to be able to walk and play with my dog but I only venture on the course with her before April 1 and after November 15 when all the growth regulators, fertilizers, grub spray, insecticides, etc, are no longer used.

True story: my wife and I visted my best friend's father 5years ago when I was back in my home town. He taught me the game when I was a kid. They live just off the 3rd green at a course in Princeton, NJ. I was petting their 4 year old golden retriever and felt a huge bump on its throat. The dog had a tumor and was given 6 months to live. The family went on to tell us that their last two dogs met a similar fate. We were shocked and could not believe that they still took their dog out on the course every day.

US golf courses are not places for dogs and small children!!

Ian,

Your post raises a number of alarming questions. The first that comes to mind is: "What the hell are you talking about?"

I too, would like to know which chemicals in use on U.S golf courses have been shown to cause cancer in dogs and small children. (Apparently, at 21 years of age, we humans arrive at some sort of immunity). Can you name one, single, documented case of a diagnosed cancer in either animals or people that is related to golf course chemicals in the past fifty years? This should be easy as you claim they "present a very clear health hazard". If that's the case, then greenkeepers should be dropping like flies.

In fact, could you name any study anywhere showing that proper use of approved pesticides on golf courses poses any health risk to anyone at all? One golden retriever  in New Jersey with a cancerous tumor doesn't prove anything. There was an eight year old boy in my kids' school who died from leukemia. He never set foot on a golf course. Perhaps we can conclude that classrooms are carcinogenic. 

I have two kids who have lived on a golf course all their lives and exposure to pesticides doesn't concern me in the least, but then I
know something about the subject.

"US golf courses are not places for dogs and small children!!"

This is the most egregiously ignorant statement I have ever read in all my years on this forum.

Greens keepers aren't dropping like flies anymore than pro golfers are coming down with melanoma. I would just like you to point to external data that cites what wonderful environments golf courses are for all household pets, especially dogs. If you and Chris are to be taken credibly, I'm sure you can easily provide reference data that supports your assertions. I have tried. Then again, I'm not trying to convert you. But perhaps others can pause to consider the risks.

http://www.mnn.com/family/pets/stories/how-lawn-chemicals-and-herbicides-affect-dogs

http://fightcaninecancer.com/lawnchemicals.html

http://www.pethealthandnutritioncenter.com/safe-lawns-dogs-cats.html

http://www.planetnatural.com/lawn-chemicals/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/what-to-know-before-you-spray-your-lawn-with-pesticides/2014/07/07/77d719a2-f63c-11e3-a606-946fd632f9f1_story.html

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/15_4/features/Canine-Malignant-Lymphoma-and-Lawn-Pesticides_20494-1.html

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2014/02/10/lawn-pesticides.aspx

What research would show the amount of dogs that lived a normal length life while being exposed to a golf course?  I have a lot of friends whose dogs never had one problem with their dogs spending most of their lives in golf courses...I.E. People who live on golf course communities or next to a coursesi that allow dogs to play/walk on the course.

[Bill Gayne]

Ian,

You'll be happy to know that my Chesapeake Bay Retriever spent every day of the first eight years of her life on the golf course with me, and at the age of twelve she is still alive and well.

It's good to know there's at a minimum three Chessie owners on GCA.

[Bill Gayne]

There was a man at Lahinch several years ago that had trained his black lab to sniff out golf balls in deep rough.

[Steve Okula]

Ian,

I asked for studies, not magazine articles. By study, I meant a genuine, scientific, academic paper. You're getting your "facts" from Golf Digest.

Just time to look at a few of your links:

http://www.usga.org/course_care/articles/environment/water/Assessing-Chemical-Hazards-on-Golf-Courses/

Their conclusion:

Under the assumptions of this risk assessment, the exposures evaluated could be tripled without exceeding levels considered safe for daily lifetime exposure. Because we compared the doses our theoretical golfer might receive from one round of golf with chronic RfDs, this golfer could receive these doses every day of his life without concern for cumulative toxicity. We caution that this "conclusion" is made as an example only and cannot be applied generally because conditions and pesticide use can vary widely from site to site.


http://www.beyondpesticides.org/golf/

Speculative, unsupported, unsubstantiated.



http://www.pesticide.org/get-the-facts/ncap-publications-and-reports/general-reports-and-publications/journal-of-pesticide-reform/journal-of-pesticide-reform-articles/golfcourses.pdf


Unsupported, unsubstantiated.


http://www.golfdigest.com/magazine/2008-05/environment_feldman

Speculative, unsupported


http://grounds-mag.com/golf_courses/grounds_maintenance_sick_golf/

A description of pesticide regulatory procedures. Nothing to say that they are definitely harming anyone.


http://m.wtae.com/news/pittsburgh-sportscaster-suing-chemical-companies-over-dads-death/25999560

A man brought a lawsuit based on the conclusion of a single doctor. Nothing about what happened, if the suit was won, lost or what. Again, nothing more in the article than opinion.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/29/realestate/golf-pros-and-cons-of-proximity.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Makes my point for me, talks about how environmentally aware U.S. golf courses are.


I don't have time now to wade through the rest of your links, and it appears that you're just throwing anything up there that has "golf" and "chemicals" in the same text.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Steve, what's up with the surly disposition? What axe do you need to grind? I don't know you and VV.

You missed the data about studies, but who cares, right? Climate change is also a myth, right?
Love to hear from you just one article, besides the recent one in Golf Digest, that extols the virtues and benefits of US golf courses as a wonderful place to take your dog. In the absence of you taking anytime whatsoever to substantiate your position, then I cannot take you seriously. Sorry.

Because this is a win/win for us. If you have some real data to present other than your personal experience, then that may help me and perhaps others reconsider their views. I would love to be wrong so that I may be able to take my dog with me in e course without concerns.

Cheers,
Ian

[Paul Gray]

Of possible interest:

http://www.finegolf.co.uk/what-is-fine-golf/golfers-dogs/

PS (for Ryan): I believe I'm right in saying that Lorne is a member of the MCC and, if he could, might actually open the batting with his dog. 

[Jon Cavalier]

I don't have a dog in this hunt (I'll see myself out) but found this interesting as well:

http://tinyurl.com/mg8fd5n
MAN IS A DOG’S BEST FRIEND!
By Larry Gilhuly, director, Northwest Region
May 22, 2012

[noonan]

I know this will not be popular but if you have a foursome on Sunday morning at 8am do you think a dog has a place in your group at that time?

I personally think not. If I am waiting on a group ahead with a dog and there is an open course in front of them I will not be happy.

If it is later on in the day when the course is not crowded - ok bring your dog.

[BCowan]

Jerry,

   I believe Huntercombe allows dogs.  The average round is 3 hours i hear.  Possibly the dogs are herding dogs and they get golfers to move faster.  If that is the case , we need more tracks here in the states with herding dogs/dogs allowed. 

[JLahrman]

I know this will not be popular but if you have a foursome on Sunday morning at 8am do you think a dog has a place in your group at that time?

I personally think not. If I am waiting on a group ahead with a dog and there is an open course in front of them I will not be happy.

If it is later on in the day when the course is not crowded - ok bring your dog.

Is your premise that having a dog walking with a group will slow down play? I'd think that someone who brings his dog on the course with him is probably a pretty brisk walker.

[Charlie_Bell]

I have some nice pictures of dogs on the course at Dornoch, but I've discovered that I'm a novice at posting photos… (Any advice?)  

[noonan]

Jerry,

   I believe Huntercombe allows dogs.  The average round is 3 hours i hear.  Possibly the dogs are herding dogs and they get golfers to move faster.  If that is the case , we need more tracks here in the states with herding dogs/dogs allowed. 

I know some golfers that need herding dogs!

[Steve Okula]

Acording to the American Veterinary Medical Association, cancer is the leading cause of death in all dogs over two years old - regrdless of habitat - and golden retrievers are the breed most susceptible to cancer.

https://www.avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/110615b.aspx

You will find golden retrievers with cancer wherever they are, and some of them happen to live near golf courses.

[Mark Pearce]

HCEG allows, even encourages dogs and they don't have a pace of play problem.  GHC Elie and Swinley a Forest are other clubs encouraging dogs and brisk play.  In fact I'd be very confident that there is a positive correlation between clubs allowing dogs and good pace of play.

[Mark Chaplin]

Chemicals are pretty much banned on European courses, no longer are we subjected to signs warning of the perils of licking your balls.

At New Zealand the drinks cart will often collect the more senior dogs midway through the round and deposit them at the clubhouse to await their host.

Badger Morris at RCP had a collar in club colours, on the 9th tee the Major would place the food/drinks order in his collar and Badger would make for the comfort of the hut. The Major's foursome would arrive to find their order awaiting them.

[Sean_A]

I am no lover of dogs and I can understand the apprehension of people not wanting dogs on courses...having been bitten twice by dogs.  That said, I have never had a problem at clubs where I see dogs.  So long as its no hassle for me its quite pleasant to watch dogs enjoy their walk.  Its no different to encountering a well behaved dog while on a walk...in fact golfers should train other dog owners how to act in public  Live and let live. 

Ciao

[Martin Toal]

I do not like dogs, having had bad experiences with them as a kid. I therefore do not want to see dogs running free on a course I am playing, and will often avoid courses where I know this to be the case.

Dog owners often have this idea that because they love Spot or whatever his or her name is, and "he wouldn't touch you" or "he's a big softy", that people who don't like them should be cool with Spot running up to them and getting all friendly or barky. But most people who don't like dogs don't want that and did not come out to play golf so they could start an unplanned and unwanted phobia desensitization programme.

[Paul Gray]

Martin,

As someone that's also a little dog phobic (I spent enough years as a paper boy developing a healthy distrust of them, particularly when an owner had just informed me that "he wouldn't hurt a fly") I'm sympathetic with your point, although not entirely in agreement. I hate to use the term but there's a degree of common sense involved in all of this. I once was asked if it was OK to bring dogs on the course, only to discover that the golfer in question was referring to a pack (is three a pack?) of rottweilers. The answer was obviously not in the affirmative and from that day forward we decided we didn't have the clientele that should be encouraged to bring their dogs with them. On the other hand, meet up with a friend for a game and discover a well trained labrador will be joining us, all is good. I doubt there have been an fatalities at any of the Surrey heathland courses due to 'attack by over friendly golden retriever.'

I do have one question though for all the dog lovers: what do you do about, er, 'waste products'? You know that stuff can cause blindness, right?

[Mark Pearce]

Paul,

The same as I do anywhere when walking the dog.  Scoop it up into a plastic bag made for the purpose, tie it up securely and throw it in a bin.

[astavrides]

A dissenting voice.

Dogs are for the park, preferably on a lead. I don't find your dog charming, in fact if I wanted to be surrounded by dogs and associated paraphernalia, I'd go to crufts.

Dogs have no place on the course and are about as appropriate as taking a Labrador out whilst opening the batting.

+1, except for the parts about crufts and batting, because I don't know what those are--probably just made up words in order to sound British.

[Ben Lovett]

A happy golf course dog

[PCCraig]

Some interesting replies to this thread so far.

We have an 11-month old pup, named "Seve", that we picked up last spring at 8 weeks old. He is a hunting breed (pointer), and has had an incredible amount of energy since we first brought him home, therefore requiring multiple daily walks, training, playtime, etc. When he was only about 10 weeks old or so, I would bring him out my home course at sunrise well before the greens crew was even out prepping the course for short walks, on a lead, in the name of exposure to different environments. He went off to be trained to hunt upland birds this past summer/fall from late July to early October and can now be handled pretty easily with the aid of an 'e-collar' which I rarely need to use outside of a vibrate to get him to recall if he's getting out a bit too far. Since the golf course closed in early November, every day that I am home with daylight I take my pup to the golf course to run as we live exactly one city block away from the eastern border of the course. He absolutely loves it. He gets to put his "afterburners" on running around the course and typically points, sometimes brings me back some sort of animal (moles, dead crows, rabbits, etc.), and he gets to meet and run around with some of the other dogs that are out on the course.

I had been prepared to take my pup out for early summer morning runs on the course this upcoming season...but after reading Ian's posts and related links I'm second guessing myself now.

I personally love the idea of playing a round of golf with a dog, and I love the set ups at places like Swinley Forest or even Sutton Bay here in the US where you can let your dog run while you play. But I'm a "dog guy" and I understand that not everyone is. Not to mention that the vast majority of dogs, in particular here in the US, are not properly trained and I wouldn't want running around a course full of golfers. I suppose it's like anything else...use your common sense...but then sometimes that is lacking in this world

[Ian Mackenzie]

Pat,

It is an irrefutable fact that many dogs of certain breeds (Lab/Golden Retrievers) are fundamentally allergic to grass (as well as wheat and even chicken.) This is not the case with all dogs or all breeds.

For me, and for my yellow lab, I choose to not take her onto 150+ acres of grass that has been treated regularly with chemicals that have been linked to cancer. (How many of you lick your golf balls on the green? You may have 20 years ago, but probably not today.)

If I lived in the UK, I might feel differently. But I live - as you know - in Chicago and am fortunate to have my dog cared for by one of the best vets in the Midwest who is a published author and respected expert in canine nutrition and health.

So, I can listen to:

A)Chris Strange and Steve Okula - surely accomplished green keepers in North Dakota and France. But I dont detect any animal medicine education....or

B) Dr. Barb Royal, DVM  - renowned vet and published author: http://www.royaltreatmentveterinarycenter.com/dr-barbara-royal/bio/

Hmmm...wait a minute, let me think....I'm going with "B", Pat.

Funny thing, Barb does play golf. But, if we ever have a question about agronomy, I will defer to Steve and Chris and let the canine medical questions be addressed by a licensed vet.

Cheers,
Ian

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