[ForkaB]

Tommy

Given the topic of this thread, aren't each of those holes just variations on the theme of the 2nd at Carnoustie (probably in itself influence by more than one hole at TOC)?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Rich, Yes they are and very wise for you to bring that up, but the strategies between to the two Coore holes are very different. One is calling for you to drive the Nose, like Braid's, but the other is dictating alternate routes on both sides with a bunker that is not drivable. You take it right, and you have a carry of the greenside bunker but with a more shallow area of green, whereas the left side is longer and uses the full length of the green to attack or work with. Which, you are correct is much like Braid's too. But together, the holes are nothing at all alike as far as strategy. (I myself didn't drive Braids, but came eeirly close to being in it!)

And of course, yes, they are all variations of #16 on the Old Course, but with these holes at Talking Stick you don't get that feeling about them. However, the 13th at Friars Head looks nothing like a hole at St. Andrews, but totally feels like it!

I hope that makes sense.

[ForkaB]

I understand, Tommy.

When I played Carnoustie last in the early 80's, no way that bunker was driveable, at least by me, with 1970's technology.  I was shocked to attend the Scottish Open in 1996 or so and see the big boys blow it over that bunker with seeming impunity.  The point being, as and when designed by Braid, that bunker was a left/right, right/left sort of hazard, IMO.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Now that you mention it, yes it was. That left bunker if I remember correct bites so much into the left half of the green, which would further the dramatics of going left, while the right side, if I remember right was bunkerless or at least the bunker was further up where you could hook one on to the green without nearly as much chance. That green I remember was a monster! Maybe the best one next to #16 at Carnoustie.

[THuckaby2]

Tommy:

Your memory of Carnoustie is pretty darn good, but not perfect... I just played there a month or so ago and the mention of #2 got me to thinking, because I didn't even remember a central fairway bunker... Then I got out the yardage guide book, and now I know why I didn't remember it - from the tees we played it didn't exist.  We were lucky in that they let us play not too far from the back, but for those who have the book (or know the course well), we played just up from the "B" tee.  From there it's 190 to carry the bunker.  Absent any wind (it was actually helping a bit that day on that shot), no one gave any thought to just bashing it over... Attribute this to technology as well, maybe, but then again, it's only a 212 carry from the furthest back tee....

Then one looks at the strategy involved, and I don't see the benefit of going right or left, really.  There are two bunkers left of the green, three right... none of them bite into the green at all... I guess it's a SLIGHTLY better angle coming in from the right, but not enough to worry about having to find the right side with the tee shot, anyway... NO, the more I think about it, the more I look at the book, dead center is the best place to be.  

Which of course is easier to say than accomplish - that's why this remains a damn tough golf hole.  The fairway is pretty darn tight, the fairway bunkers in the driving zone (both sides are very penal, and the rough is brutal all the way around.

But this hole as an example of strategic design?  Not the way it works today, unfortunately....

TH

[Bill_McBride]

I'm looking at one of the first golf books I've owned, "Sandy Lyle takes you round Scotland's Championship Courses (St. Andrews, Carnoustie, Royal Troon, Muirfield, Gleneagles)," published in 1982.  Here's Sandy's take on the 439 yd 2nd at Carnoustie:  "The second hole is quite different.  There is a pleasant view from the tee up a narrow vally, on the line of the fairway, with ridges along either side.  The one on the right is higher and comes down into the fairway quite sharply [a big difference from TSN!].  The first problem is Braid's Bunker, positioned in the centre of the fairway, with a supporting bunker perhaps 50 yards past it on the left.  These bunkers look quite close and innocent.  They are neither.  They are very deep - a sand iron will be your only shot out.  Braid's Bunker dominates the hole absolutely.  It is 200 yards from the medal tee, and you must decide how to handle it, depending on your ability and the conditions on that day.
   "Before you drive the ball anywhere, accept the fact that this hole at any time will demand two very good hits to bring you anywhere near the green, so I would be inclined to play it as a par 5 [!!!].  In the driving zone the left side of the fairway, between these two bunkers, is the better side tactically, but the ground there is rather uneven, almost rutted.  The right side is better ground, but the perfect place, I suppose, is past Braid's Bunker, in the centre of the fairway."  
     Sandy goes on to mention that there is an "evil little trap in the left side of the waist (of the green), cutting boldly into the putting surface."  I'm not sure why Sandy wouldn't recommend the right side of the fairway as the optimum driving line because of that "evil little trap."  But's it's all irrelevant, as Tom Huckaby points out, because today's equipment has rendered Braid's Bunker not in play.  Too bad. Golf was maybe more interesting in 1982.

[ian]

Bunker in the centre: Carnoustie, Talking Stick, Woking; are all based on the 16th at St. Andrews.

The answer all comes down to where you personally draw the line. I would give the nod to Dye for 17 and 18 at TPC, but you can find similar older examples of both using different elements. Where do you draw the line?

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