[John_McMillan]

Classical architecture has given golf many prototypes which find their design themes repeated in other courses.  The Redan, Eden, Cape and Biarritz are examples of holes which live over and over again on courses other than their original.  I'm curiouis about the contributions of modern architecture (say post 1975) to hole design themes. Probably the most well known is Pete Dye's island green at the 17th at the TPC at Sawgrass.

In the year 2050, when Tommy Naccarato's grand-son posts on GCA, which holes from the period 1975 - 2003 will he be waxing nostagically about?

[Bill_McBride]

At the risk of flaming retorts, I suggest that one modern prototype is the well framed hole with containment mounding, fairway bunkers on both sides of the fairway except set 15 yards into the rough, and greenside bunkers at 7 and 4 o'clock.  There must be a million of these holes dotting the landscape these days.  And it doesn't matter what the natural topography is, this hole is just gouged out with various heavy earthmoving machines.  The chief distinction of the architects involved is the shaping not of the bunkers but of the mounds.  Oh yes, I almost forgot, every tee is elevated, that's where the dirt goes from the ubiquitous excavated ponds for water storage for the lavish irrigation system.  Oh, I almost forgot the continuous but well-concealed cart paths, sometimes with curbs for cart paths only control.

(Just returned from two rounds at the Valley Club of Montecito, nary a one of these prototype holes there!  ) But there are plenty of non-prototype holes and courses out there, you just have to sometimes settle for something less than CCFAD!

[Joe Hancock]

Bill,

Flaming retorts? I think I had those for dessert on a cruise ship once....

Joe

[Mitch Hantman]

There's the classic Pete Dye finishing hole -  Long par 4, gradual dogleg left with water all the way down the left side from tee to green.  Examples include TPC Sawgrass, Bulle Rock, Blackwolf Run River (during US Women's open).   With Pete Dye, we've also seen many times the short par 4, partial blind second shot over a large mound, Himalayas style, sometimes with a rock on top for directional (Lahinch Dell).  

[RJ_Daley]

How about the long par 4 or par 5 with the lengthy waste bunker, or regular hazard sand bunker running down the bite-off side of the fairway which is raised 5-10ft requiring steps to get down the grasswall into the bunker from the higher fairway.  Pete Dye has made so many of those, and it seems his understudies do as well.  

[David_Elvins]

John McMillan,

if you want a modern day example of a cape, redan etc, I think you are looking slightly to the wrong time period.  Road holes, biarritzes,capes etc were copied by MacDonald, Raynor and Co. from an older generation of great courses.  The modern day comparison would be looking for golden age holes (and design principles) that are copied by modern day architects (rather than just mass produced modern holes).  The most obvious i can think of would be the 12th at Augusta.  The design principles in that hole have been copied many times in the last 35 years.  
Another interesting question would be:
"What classic Golden Age holes have had their design principles copied en masse in the last generation?"

[Tommy_Naccarato]

John, First off, I better get to work quick and find a concubine to produce an heir to my throne, which at the moment is polished white porcelin that doesn't flush at full volume.

The Bill Coore protoypical "Left is right," or "Right is Left" model is a favorite. It usually features a Principal's Nose bunker in the driving area, and then another fronting the green, depending on which way is right, the green fronting "Nose" is more out of play.

Great hole, but even it is inspired by yesterday's ideals, which, I have to tell you, only really a handful of architects really understand. And I can further tell you that Robert Dean Putnam isn't one of them.

[Forrest Richardson]

OK, Tommy Dean Naccarato, what do you really know about Putman?

In answer to this question: Has anyone really considered this? Has there been an quantative analysis of design to see what positive designs have been derived?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Forrest, I have played the sum of two Roger Dean Putnam designs. Both in the Central Valley. They weren't all that great, and one I went out of my way to play because it had been given this great send up as being a hidden gem in the middle of nowhere--Wasco Valley Rose. Mind you that I did this in the early morning hours before spending the next hours baking in the North Bakersfiled sun at Famoso Drag Strip working on a funny car or dragster or something. (I can't remember as we raced there way too many times.)

The course was neither a gem nor what anyone here would call interesting. But, it was not far from the Tulee Elk Preserve, and they were running all around the place--on the flatest of lands. Pretty impressive to see them run too.

[Forrest Richardson]

What were you doing baking in hot weather? We usually have salads and cold sandwiches.

[John_McMillan]

David Elvins -

I phrased the question exactly as I wanted it.  I realize that the holes I listed are not from the "Golden Age," which is why I did not use that prase in my post.  What I am interested in are examples of modern holes which are originals - and which are of high enough quality that they will spurn their own reproduction and discussion.

Tommy N -

Can you give a specific example (course and hole #) of Coore's "Left is Right" or "Right is Left" hole?

[david h. carroll]

Shivas--I iwish those double split fairways a la Nicklaus would never be copied...I can't think of a single one where one of the fairways is neither an option nor in play, nor visually appealing...18 at Melrose immediately comes to mind...I don't hink I've ever seen anyone play it up the left fairway unless they pull hooked the crap out of it.

DC

[david h. carroll]

Nicklaus' boy Rick Jacobson also put one of those double split fairways in at Augustine in VA on the first hole?!?!?!?

[Mitch Hantman]

Donald Ross came up with the par 5 split fairway, at Seminole. It is indeed very strategic.

[Mike_Cirba]

Everything New is Old again.

Calling Dye's island green "modern" is sort of humorous since Tillinghast was building them pretty regularly as early as 1914.  

[ForkaB]

There is a theory out there that all sitcom episodes are variations on 7 basic stories.  The difference, of course, between say "Seinfeld" and any of its dire spinoffs is in the details.

I think that GCA is the same.  There are probably 7 different basic design ideas out there, most of which were already present on the old links courses of Scotland when CB, DJR adn Dr. MacK got around to deciding to get into the business (including "split" fairways--see TOC....).  As with sitcoms, the devil is in the details.

Or, as the old joke goes:  "There's "Nothing" Gnu!  Under the sun!"

[Bill_McBride]

John McMillan - let me speak up on the Coore/Crenshaw "left is right etc" hole design - I played Talking Stick North in January and there were probably three - #4, #5, #12.  Each had a central bunker (#12 actually a sandy wash/shallow raving).  Whether you went left or right of the center bunker depended on your angle to the pin position that day.  Plus your ability to carry part of the bunker in the case of #4.  Great design, I really thought the bunkers at TSN to be the best I've seen on a flat otherwise featureless site.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Talking Stick North


Talking Stick South


As you can see, the strategy is completely different, one from the other, but the hole is somewhat close to the same. The Chosen One has further evolved these strategieries (Sorry for the "W" poke and prode) even more brilliantly at Friars Head #13, where it is now three specific Nose bunkers and several more differing strategies to get to the hole. It's one of the best 18 holes on the course. I would have no problem playing this one hole for the rest of my life.

I also think he has a similar Left is Right/Right is Left at East Hampton, with suprizingly a "Boundry" fence on the right side of the hole.

And yes, Boundry could be another hole that is a Modern Day Prototype.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I might also add that I don't have a clue as to what hole is the best at Friars Head. All 18 have rendered this close to impossible to pick a Best.

[Bill_McBride]

When I mentioned carrying the bunker on #4 above, I was actually referring to #3, which has a much larger bunker complex directly in front of the tee.  The decision then is (1) can I carry the damned thing straight away; (2) do I hit it left or right depending on angle to the pin.  So #3,#4,#5 all have this central bunker left/right feature.  #12 also as mentioned above, with sandy wash in the center and small fairway left/huge fairway right.  

[John_McMillan]

Mike Cirba -

There were island greens that were built on courses before Dye built his.  However, none of them were as penal as Dye's.  The idea that you're either on the green - or in the water - is a modern invention.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Panhandle Bill,
I think you had it right the first time with #4 correct?

[Bill_McBride]

I dunno, Tommy, you've got two #4's in your hole diagrams above!  Looking back on my one round at TSN, I think #4 is Three Roads with the big bunker (#1 easy par 4, #2 Boundary, #3 real tough par 4 same direction as Boundary); #5 Left is right or vice versa.  What about the second #4 above?!  What great bunkering!  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Right is Right--the first #4 shown is from Talking Stick--South

Personally, I like them all, but more specifically I really enjoy the hole with less bunkering in relation to how it works given the site (As youknow, completely flat and featureless) but the South's #4 is an easier golf hole then the others. Still it is really good and different strategy then the others so it remains fresh to the mind. An amazing thing since so much had to be done with ths fetureless property.

So many put the South course down as not being nearly as challenging as the North. They may be right, but the South is a really fine test of golf too. Especially when you get to the Eastern most holes on the property.

[Bill_McBride]

I went back and looked more closely - the #4 you're showing is TSS! (Talking Stick South).   Also checked the yardage guide I forgot I've kept.  Center bunker features on TSN:  #4 and #5, #11 par 3 (!), #12 the wash.  

Sorry - posts crossed in the night!

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