[Philip Hensley]

I just got some membership info for Southern Pines GC. Does anyone know if the walking fee is a new thing? The nice lady on the phone that I talked to sounded like some of the membership information had changed recently, and so I was curious if this was a new thing or not at this particular course.

I know there have been discussions regarding walkers vs. cartballers, which is better for the course in terms of revenue, maintenance, etc. I think I'm probably opposed to a walking fee, however SPGC has an incredibly low initiation fee and monthly dues are low. So even after you factor the walking fees in, a normal user will end up with roughly the same bill per month as someone joining a club that has a more traditional pricing structure. But it also means during the months where you can't get to the course to play as much you will be paying the low monthly rate so it won't feel like you're wasting money. There are many courses in my area that charge 3-4 times what SPGC charges per month and their courses aren't anywhere near as good as SP.

[Brent Hutto]

There is a thread halfway down the first page on this very topic. Fairly extensive back and forth on the matter over the past few days.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60150.0.html

In summary, it seems to be an unusual but not at all unheard of policy around the country.

[Philip Hensley]

I didn't phrase my question well. I'm asking if anyone knows if this policy is new to SPGC in particular.

[Cory Lewis]

I didn't phrase my question well. I'm asking if anyone knows if this policy is new to SPGC in particular.

It has to be fairly new.  When I was a member in 2010/2011 there was never an extra fee to walk.  That's why we joined in the 1st place.

[Jim_Kennedy]

I think they once had a "Basic" membership for something around $1,200/yr, but you paid under $10 to walk, maybe twice that to use a cart. 

[Brandon Livengood]

Hi, I work for the current management of Southern Pines Golf Club. The fee for walking has been around for years. It was in place at the time the current management took over, and they simply continued it.

My understanding is that the original fees were coded as a "cart fund" fee and "trail fund" fee.
Again it is my understanding that these fees had been used by the Elks to pay for maintenance/upgrades to the cart paths and the carts.

I believe it was originally $1 per 9 holes for each fund for a total of $4 per 18.
Later it was increased to $2 per 9 holes for each fund for a total of $8 per 18.

Brandon Livengood
Southern Pines Golf Club

[BCowan]

Brandon,

    Are there any plans to get a few trolleys at SPGC to rent out?  When i played in November my future father in law would have loved to walk, but the shop said you didn't have any to rent.  It was his favorite course in Southern Pines. 

[PCCraig]

Walking fees are dumb.

[C. Sturges]

Pat,
Walking fees are suspect I agree, but walking fees to help pay for carts and cart paths are really dumb!  Nothing better than supporting the lazy!
chris

[Eric Strulowitz]

Pat,
Walking fees are suspect I agree, but walking fees to help pay for carts and cart paths are really dumb!  Nothing better than supporting the lazy!
chris

Golf is the only sport I can think of that has so many out of shape and non-athletic participants, and punishes the player for  doing a behavior that is clearly healthy and beneficial.    I was a member of a private club back in the early 90's, they implemented a $4 walking fee on weekends.   The walkers talked among themselves and  responded by deciding not to buy anything at the bar, grill, or pro shop.   The fee ended very quickly.  That is the way to make a message.   Walking fees are stupid, no they are asinine and those who are charged these ridiculous fees can make a statement in their own unique way.   The sport is in trouble, and how can we attract people to the game when some of the playing fields punish us for doing a healthy practice. 

[C. Sturges]

Eric,
That could be one of the best things I have heard.  So far here in Northern Ohio, courses and clubs have not started charging walking fees.  I hope none of them get any ideas?!
chris

[Eric Strulowitz]

Eric,
That could be one of the best things I have heard.  So far here in Northern Ohio, courses and clubs have not started charging walking fees.  I hope none of them get any ideas?!
chris

Doubt it, walking fees are still not a common practice and in  this environment what a stupid way to turn off current or perspective members.

If clubs need money, there are better, more discreet ways to do it, but not in the face of those that are playing the game the WAY it was intended.  And not only intended, but in the most healthy manner.

[John Kavanaugh]

No matter how hard you beat your chest, at the end of the day you are still a golfer.  Once you start categorizing golf as part of a healthy lifestyle you have already given up.  Walkers don't walk because they are cheap and cart riders aren't lazy, but they are both still golfers.  No matter how you look at it you can't get past that basic fact.

I just paid my $500 per year dues at a local private club where I played two 18 hole rounds last year.  I do play in a league and drink there most everyday so I fully support their $5 trail fee.  You pay to play, it's what you got to do if you want dues to stay at $500 per year with only 200 members.  

The odd thing is that at this club the cart riders look up to the walkers instead of thinking they are just cheap skates looking for a free ride.  It's nice on that off day where I find myself walking down the fairway.

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

Had a guy at the club I grew up at, retired teacher I think, played every day of the week except Mondays, walked right from the parking lot to the first tee, and from the 18th green straight to the parking lot. Didn't keep a locker, brought a sandwich to eat during the round, barely talked to anyone. One of the few members of a club who could actually say they do get their money's worth.

The club briefly implemented a walking fee on weekends and we figured it was aimed at this guy. Not surprisingly he quit playing on the weekends.

[Jon Wiggett]

I just paid my $500 per year dues at a local private club where I played two 18 hole rounds last year.  I do play in a league and drink there most everyday so I fully support their $5 trail fee.  You pay to play, it's what you got to do if you want dues to stay at $500 per year with only 200 members.  

John,

then your a member of a private bar with attached golf course. Do you have to pay to stand up whilst taking a whizz

Jon

[archie_struthers]

Wow, we just spent a ton of pages on this very subject recently . Walking is a great way to,play golf,, and good for seeing the course and enjoyIng your fellow players.  But no matter how you slice it the club needs to make revenue to survive and thrive . If everyone walked , dues would have to go up to offset revenue losses from cart fees.

At a public course walkers typically get a discounted rate from cart riders , but the golf isn't free, no matter how you slice it !

[BCowan]

Wow, we just spent a ton of pages on this very subject recently . Walking is a great way to,play golf,, and good for seeing the course and enjoyIng your fellow players.  But no matter how you slice it the club needs to make revenue to survive and thrive . If everyone walked , dues would have to go up to offset revenue losses from cart fees.

At a public course walkers typically get a discounted rate from cart riders , but the golf isn't free, no matter how you slice it !

If more walkers played you would have more membership dues from more members or public green fees.  Don't cut other things, that might make sense.  I know they don't cut waste in NJ...

[William_G]

Walking fees are dumb.

stupid Americans at their best

[Joe Hancock]

Wow, we just spent a ton of pages on this very subject recently . Walking is a great way to,play golf,, and good for seeing the course and enjoyIng your fellow players.  But no matter how you slice it the club needs to make revenue to survive and thrive . If everyone walked , dues would have to go up to offset revenue losses from cart fees.

At a public course walkers typically get a discounted rate from cart riders , but the golf isn't free, no matter how you slice it !

Archie,

I'm probably misinterpreting, but your statements above almost remind me of how our government works. Raise taxes to provide ill-aimed or overpriced services, instead of streamlining services by cutting the frills and making do with what is available.

In the aspect that a club needs to make money to survive, well, you're correct. But that's true with any private enterprise venture. As much as I love golf, I have yet to understand why some think every course should exist despite bad plans, bad management, or bad people.

Joe

[Sean_A]

I realize that walking fees are for the most part a labeled aspect of golf dues...either way the member will pay.  But to somehow target a walker as trying to avoid dues by not using a cart and therefore not paying his fair share is perverse.  It is afterall the cartballers who are putting pressure on the club by creating an expenditure which for many members and in many clubs clubs is completely unnecessary.  There is no question many clubs have created a white elephant by spending money on carts and paths then using that as a pretense to raise dues.  I am normally all in for club dues....meaning everybody in the same class membership pays the same dues. However, in the case of such a heavy expense due to carts which for many clubs is not only unnecessary, in many cases compromises the quality of the course, it is an unrealistic expectation.  Going a step further, to then believe that carts are a necessary evil as a revenue stream is layering the shit on the burnt cake.  If dues need to be raised, they should be raised rather than coming up with what is for most clubs a completely irrational reason for expenditure and raised dues.  This is a concept I will never get my head round. 

Ciao

[archie_struthers]

 


Ben and Joe . This is a DG where most of us really love golf and walking golf!   My favorite tournament every year in my youth was 54 holes carry your own at Freeway  Golf  Club , you could take a cart but it was a penalty per round.  I do live in NJ but have been an outspoken critic of the sham that is our governments desire to tax or control  anything that moves. Just because one lives in a state or country does not mean they agree with its politics.

It's really funny to see my pragmatic view on golf fees engender me or even throw me in with  NJ legislators and taxing bodies.

  I am a senior player now ,  a little chubbier than I'd like , but regularly carry my bag or at the very least throw it on with an older or less ambulatory cart mate and walk unfettered by the bag .  Love caddies but they don't work everywhere. Built and owned a golf course where walking fees were $40 less than the riding fee. So maybe you don't actually understand me!


Just to be clear , I'm not for walking fees , but if you don't have carts and cart revenue the dues will generally be higher. Many older players unfortunately can't or  won't walk , and we'd lose some great members by excluding carts. Some people that walk are slower than cart players , yes this is heresy , but we here are probably an aberration from the norm , at least in America . Pace of play is a huge issue .


That being said I'm sure calling me stupid or a communist isn't personal ,  , and we'd greatly enjoy playing and having a pint afterwards and talking GCA.

[Brent Hutto]

...an expenditure which for many members and in many clubs clubs is completely unnecessary.

Carts for 99% of USA clubs are "necessary" in the sense of "required if you want the club to have enough members to remain solvent". But no, you don't need carts in order for a golf course to exist any more than you need 18 holes rather than 9 or you need toilets and running water on the premises.

My club has about 300 members which is barely at the break-even level. Of the 200 or so who play golf regularly about 80% of them take carts and I'd estimate if there were no carts available 150 of the them would not be members and the course would be bulldozed to build houses or something instead.

When 3/4 or more of the golfers in a club's target market always play golf using a cart, there's not much future in arm-waving away carts as "completely unnecessary". And I say this as someone who has ridden in a golf cart maybe 12-15 of my last 1,000 rounds.

[BCowan]

Archie,

   Your alright by me, except you are missing the big picture.  2ndly I don't use GCA outlook when thinking of the golfing sector of hardcore golfers who could care less about GCA.  

I am a senior player now ,  a little chubbier than I'd like , but regularly carry my bag or at the very least throw it on with an older or less ambulatory cart mate and walk unfettered by the bag .  Love caddies but they don't work everywhere. Built and owned a golf course where walking fees were $40 less than the riding fee. So maybe you don't actually understand me!   Amen

Just to be clear , I'm not for walking fees , but if you don't have carts and cart revenue the dues will generally be higher. Many older players unfortunately can't or  won't walk , and we'd lose some great members by excluding carts. Some people that walk are slower than cart players , yes this is heresy , but we here are probably an aberration from the norm , at least in America . Pace of play is a huge issue .  

   This is where you totally lose me.  Many players over 50 start using trollies.  That sector is a huge sector of potential members that you are overlooking.  My parents are both college educated and both worked.  They play 100 rounds between them and only take a cart when it is above 90 deg.  Very typical at their club and the club i play at.  That sector would not be a member if they had to pay for carts each time and def. not for a walking fee.  My parents would join another club in their area that is $200 more a month if they could use their trollies, but the failing club still insists on caddie or cart.  Ala they focus on revenue, while not realizing that there aren't enough people in the area that can afford the $9000 a year membership plus cart or caddie fees.  So member shortages cause people to start coming up with revenue BS lines that drive away members or potential members.  People under 45 don't hang out and support their clubs in the winter months like their grandparents did.  So losing lots of money the cold 5 months a year keeping a big clubhouse heated and overstaffed hardly ever gets addressed or looked at.  That creates debt in poor economies and BS walking fees.   A 1% club in metro detroit does close their clubhouse 3-4 months in winter and is doing very well post 08' Recession.  Pace of play is much faster walking then riding.  People that don't know cart golf, play in 4+ hours, again i totally disagree with you assuming we are talking about a course routed with walking in mind. 

and we'd greatly enjoy playing and having a pint afterwards and talking GCA

would love to.  I don't think your a pinko either.  I hope i was able to shed some light on another way to look at it.  

[archie_struthers]

Brent , you said it all!


There is no homogenized way to run any club , it requires hands on management , but for the majority of American golfers carts have become a necessary part of the equation. For those lucky enough to  play at walking  only courses , enjoy the privilege !

Ben , I love to walk . But there's no way you can walk as fast as we play in carts.  Remember I'm assuming we all really know our way around a golf clurse. We both most likely  play fast whether walking or riding. However , if Imhave a slow player in the group we can jockey them around. Pretty hard to move a slow walker !

[BCowan]

...an expenditure which for many members and in many clubs clubs is completely unnecessary.

Carts for 99% of USA clubs are "necessary" in the sense of "required if you want the club to have enough members to remain solvent". But no, you don't need carts in order for a golf course to exist any more than you need 18 holes rather than 9 or you need toilets and running water on the premises.

My club has about 300 members which is barely at the break-even level. Of the 200 or so who play golf regularly about 80% of them take carts and I'd estimate if there were no carts available 150 of the them would not be members and the course would be bulldozed to build houses or something instead.

When 3/4 or more of the golfers in a club's target market always play golf using a cart, there's not much future in arm-waving away carts as "completely unnecessary". And I say this as someone who has ridden in a golf cart maybe 12-15 of my last 1,000 rounds.

I believe Sean was talking about cart paths.  He wasn't talking about having no carts.  Talking about detouring potential members with walking fees.  Please don't take Sean out of context.  So the 20% that walk, do they have walking fees?  It's funny you left a club that had walking fees and the membership was aging.  Great model, lol

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