CONFIDENTIAL GUIDE THOUGHTS

[Mark Chaplin]

If The Berkshire isn't included in the best luncheon section the book has a problem!! I'm guessing in the south east RStG, Rye, Swinley Forest and Tandridge? The later being possibly the best of all.

Pennard copying Sagebrush the Canadians should sue. Mind you Sagebrudh is 5 years old and Pennard 116....

[Mark Pearce]

Not including the Berkshire in the Best Lunch section was a dreadful omission!

Apparently, never having eaten lunch at The Berkshire was my dreadful omission.

That was an omission.  Lunch at the Berkshire is not quite at HCEG levels but beats Swinley, for me.  A perfect way of splitting rounds on the two courses, too.

[Ed Tilley]

I did think of Nefyn, does it count as a 'golf course' plus, it's in North Wales, to some now a suburb of Liverpool and Manchester!:)
Oggi, oggi, oggi!
atb

Come now - it is very unbecoming for someone from the south to look down on the north. This sort of thing never happens in England.

That 13th hole at Nefyn is worth the green fee alone.

[Mark Chaplin]

Nefyn is as overrated as Hillside, the one redeeming feature is the Ty Coch Inn and loads of golfers seem to miss it!

[jeffwarne]

Nefyn is as overrated as Hillside, the one redeeming feature is the Ty Coch Inn and loads of golfers seem to miss it!

While I disagree with Nefyn being overrated (didn't play Hillside) I couldn't agree more about the Ty Coch Inn.
But then the Inn, (which is PART of the round-sometimes twice - as opposed to a clubhouse before or after) the scenery, the epic scale and feel of the cliff holes, and even many/most of the holes appealed to me as well.
Not Sean's favorite, and not a subtle example of clever architecture, but Nefyn has a lot to offer

I didn't mention it in the scenery discussion because GJ was referencing South Wales and even St. David and Aberdovey were a stretch geographically

[Paul_Turner]

I thought Belvoir Park would get a visit this time because Tom acknowledges my mate Johnny Browne.  A good rolling parkland with many strong holes...could get a "6".

[Noel Freeman]

Tom gave Parkstone a 4 which I believe Paul Turner and I would rate higher after our visit years ago.
I wrote a piece for Nefyn for Links magazine a few years ago.  I'm not trying to prop that but would say this, James Finegan said that playing the "Point" holes at Nefyn was like golfing on the deck of an aircraft carrier. That is wonderfully put by Mr. Finegan.  I believe the rating is right and the experience is terrific--Ty Coch etc. Also Nefyn Holes 2-5 are quite strategic and heroic golf as well.

Tom Doak- you never saw Fowler's Bull Bay in North Wales.. Monsieur Rowlinson sent me there years ago. A true hidden gem despite several holes on the front 9 being altered or they just look out of place.  GO THERE..

http://www.bullbaygc.co.uk/history.htm

[Sean_A]

Nefyn is as overrated as Hillside, the one redeeming feature is the Ty Coch Inn and loads of golfers seem to miss it!

While I disagree with Nefyn being overrated (didn't play Hillside) I couldn't agree more about the Ty Coch Inn.
But then the Inn, (which is PART of the round-sometimes twice - as opposed to a clubhouse before or after) the scenery, the epic scale and feel of the cliff holes, and even many/most of the holes appealed to me as well.
Not Sean's favorite, and not a subtle example of clever architecture, but Nefyn has a lot to offer

I didn't mention it in the scenery discussion because GJ was referencing South Wales and even St. David and Aberdovey were a stretch geographically

Jeff

If you want good views, go to the pub..its free  .  In general, views aren't going to sell a course to me.  I can see terrific views all over the place.  Give me the golf and if views come with it, fine, but I am not paying a green fee for views. 

Ciao

[jeffwarne]

Nefyn is as overrated as Hillside, the one redeeming feature is the Ty Coch Inn and loads of golfers seem to miss it!

While I disagree with Nefyn being overrated (didn't play Hillside) I couldn't agree more about the Ty Coch Inn.
But then the Inn, (which is PART of the round-sometimes twice - as opposed to a clubhouse before or after) the scenery, the epic scale and feel of the cliff holes, and even many/most of the holes appealed to me as well.
Not Sean's favorite, and not a subtle example of clever architecture, but Nefyn has a lot to offer

I didn't mention it in the scenery discussion because GJ was referencing South Wales and even St. David and Aberdovey were a stretch geographically

Jeff

If you want good views, go to the pub..its free  .  

Ciao

Sean,
Pubs aren't free, and they don't take PGA cards like Golf courses do

[John Mayhugh]

Tom Doak- you never saw Fowler's Bull Bay in North Wales.. Monsieur Rowlinson sent me there years ago. A true hidden gem despite several holes on the front 9 being altered or they just look out of place.  GO THERE..
http://www.bullbaygc.co.uk/history.htm

I was also hoping for Bull Bay to be included.  Too early to talk about the next edition, though.

[Rich Goodale]

I'm gutted that Aucterderan was not included.  Josie and I played there 2 weeks ago and it was still magic.......

[Mark Chaplin]

It's only a matter of time before the peninsular holes at Nefyn are closed, anyone playing there should be insured to the hilt. Playing totally blind towards a busy pedestrian footpath more than once is utter madness.

[Paul Gray]

Tom Doak- you never saw Fowler's Bull Bay in North Wales.. Monsieur Rowlinson sent me there years ago. A true hidden gem despite several holes on the front 9 being altered or they just look out of place.  GO THERE..
http://www.bullbaygc.co.uk/history.htm

I was also hoping for Bull Bay to be included.  Too early to talk about the next edition, though.

Nope. I'm already hankering for volume 1.1 and I haven't got volume 1 as yet. Seemingly a lot is missing.

[Ryan Coles]

Nefyn is as overrated as Hillside, the one redeeming feature is the Ty Coch Inn and loads of golfers seem to miss it!

While I disagree with Nefyn being overrated (didn't play Hillside) I couldn't agree more about the Ty Coch Inn.
But then the Inn, (which is PART of the round-sometimes twice - as opposed to a clubhouse before or after) the scenery, the epic scale and feel of the cliff holes, and even many/most of the holes appealed to me as well.
Not Sean's favorite, and not a subtle example of clever architecture, but Nefyn has a lot to offer

I didn't mention it in the scenery discussion because GJ was referencing South Wales and even St. David and Aberdovey were a stretch geographically

Jeff

If you want good views, go to the pub..its free  .  In general, views aren't going to sell a course to me.  I can see terrific views all over the place.  Give me the golf and if views come with it, fine, but I am not paying a green fee for views. 

Ciao

I am. Thousands gladly spent gladly on memorable views. Kingsbarns, Dornoch, Castle Stuart, Brora, St Enodoc etc etc. I'll buy beauty and views all year long. I can do bleak everyday for free. Scenery is a good thing in holiday or away day day golf. Big dunes, crashing waves, pine & heather, its why I play.

[Paul Gray]

Nefyn is as overrated as Hillside, the one redeeming feature is the Ty Coch Inn and loads of golfers seem to miss it!

While I disagree with Nefyn being overrated (didn't play Hillside) I couldn't agree more about the Ty Coch Inn.
But then the Inn, (which is PART of the round-sometimes twice - as opposed to a clubhouse before or after) the scenery, the epic scale and feel of the cliff holes, and even many/most of the holes appealed to me as well.
Not Sean's favorite, and not a subtle example of clever architecture, but Nefyn has a lot to offer

I didn't mention it in the scenery discussion because GJ was referencing South Wales and even St. David and Aberdovey were a stretch geographically

Jeff

If you want good views, go to the pub..its free  .  In general, views aren't going to sell a course to me.  I can see terrific views all over the place.  Give me the golf and if views come with it, fine, but I am not paying a green fee for views. 

Ciao

I am. Thousands gladly spent gladly on memorable views. Kingsbarns, Dornoch, Castle Stuart, Brora, St Enodoc etc etc. I'll buy beauty and views all year long. I can do bleak everyday for free. Scenery is a good thing in holiday or away day day golf. Big dunes, crashing waves, pine & heather, its why I play.

That being the case, and I hate to break it to you, but you don't need to pay a penny for any of those things.

[Ryan Coles]

Paul

How many great courses, in your opinion, aren't great/exceptionally attractive to look at? Ie name a few examples?

[Paul Gray]

Paul

How many great courses, in your opinion, aren't great/exceptionally attractive to look at? Ie name a view?

But that wasn't what you were saying. You said you played for big dunes, waves, heather and pine. All of this can be found away from a golf course, meaning you don't have to pay for the privilege. If however you were referring to the beauty of a golf course crafted by man so as to meld perfectly with a vividly beautiful and natural landscape, that I can understand.

[Sean_A]

Paul

How many great courses, in your opinion, aren't great/exceptionally attractive to look at? Ie name a few examples?

Paul

I have long held that often times the biggest difference between great and good is a sense of grandeur (however that may exist).  The actual difference in the quality of the holes can be quite scant.  Hence the reason there are so many wonderful 2nd and 3rd tier in GB&I.   

You have created a false dichotomy.  Now you are talking about great courses with views.  Why not talk about mediocre courses with great views?  Oh, yes, Nefyn    

Great courses without anything close to exceptional views (interior and/or exterior)

Merion
TOC - posterchild for not having to pay for the view  
Prestwick
Formby
Muirfield
Woking
Sacred 9
Deal
St Georges Hill
Ganton
Royal Aberdeen

I would pay full whack for at least half of these.  I must be mad if the views aren't exceptional  

In truth, there are very few courses which the views really stand out for me and I think for the most part, it is those courses with cool interior views (quite rare).  

Sunny Old
Renaissance Club
Walton Heath
Old Town
Notts

There are likely a few others.  


22. Wallasey: I remain very surprised that Doak has yet to see Wallasey....and its not on his hit list.  What is the story Tom?

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Carnoustie isn't the prettiest looking course nor is it scenically surrounded, especially when the previous clubhouse was there. There was also a pretty ugly storage building with the words "Grants" painted on the roof by the railway line.
Seaton Carew and Newbigigin would be two other examples of the lack of a visually attractive location.
atb

[James Boon]

Sean,

I actually thought Ganton actually has some very nice views of the Vale of Pickering that it sits within?

Cheers,

James

[Sean_A]

Boony & Sheehy

Do you thing the views at SGH and Ganton are special - enough so that you would mention them as something worth paying for?  I see Ganton views just driving around my house...its dime a dozen stuff.  SGH is surrounded by housing, nice housing, but housing.  The interior views aren't all that.  SGH is just a bloody good golf course!

Ciao  

[Paul Gray]

Paul

How many great courses, in your opinion, aren't great/exceptionally attractive to look at? Ie name a few examples?

Paul

.......You have created a false dichotomy.  Now you are talking about great courses with views.  Why not talk about mediocre courses with great views?  Oh, yes, Nefyn     ..............



Ciao

Nope, I'm talking about landscapes which are made beautiful because of the juxtaposition between man's input and the lie of the land. But I do agree that often our interpretation is led by a sense of grandeur.  

[Ryan Coles]

Tom and all – great book, am enjoying it. 

What stands out most to me so far is the “London and Heathlands” section.  I’ve not been yet but based on all the exceptional reviews and pictures both here and elsewhere its very high on my list.  I know the courses are not links per se but I was led to believe they (can) play very much like them, with several having been built by top tier archies.  And according to the map on p100 it appears more courses have been reviewed in this area than almost any other – maybe it’s just the scale…? 

All that said, I was surprised that not only did Tom not assign a 9 to any course in the region, but no other reviewers did, either.  Not a single 9 in the Heathland.  Have to say that leaves me a bit discouraged, or at least perplexed. 

There does seem to be more 8s than several other regions, too, so it’s got that going for it, which is, well, you know. 

I think you raise some good points.

There are so many good courses in that area. Inland golf in GB&I doesn't get better than Sunningdale. But like you say, only an 8. The conclusion has to be that whilst famed for Links, we just don't do inland golf anywhere near as good as the upper echelons across the pond.

I often wonder what Americans really think of the Berkshire et al. We rave about them in this country, but I suspect they are often underwhelmed compared to what they/you have at home.

[Matt MacIver]

When we get the next two volumes it will be interesting to see how many 10s Tom gives to US courses, along with the other three panelists.

I know PH #2 pretty well and really like it...but really didn't imagine Sunningdale could be two notches below it.

[Stewart Abramson]

I often wonder what Americans really think of the Berkshire et al. We rave about them in this country, but I suspect they are often underwhelmed compared to what they/you have at home.

I can only speak for this American. I am more often underwhelmed by what I have at home than I am when I visit England. I Love the Berkshire. The Surrey/Berks heathland region is one of my favorite place to play. The Berkshire courses are 7's in my book, but only got 6's in the Confi Guide. When you play both Red and Blue on the same day, they are even pretty high on the Arble value scale. These hang in my office:


Berkshire Red #10


Berkshire Blue #15 from tee P1050406r