CONFIDENTIAL GUIDE THOUGHTS

[Sean_A]

There are definitely some 5's that I like better than others, but that doesn't mean they deserve a 6.

Very fine 

Ciao

[Garland Bayley]

...
GJ

Go play Pennard again.  If you liked Perranporth, the penny should eventually drop.

...

Doubt I would ever bother with Pennard again. As I indicated, it seems to me that some of its high regard comes from demanding certain shots to survive. I played with Mr. 4-0-0 KPer, and we both thought the course exhibited too much of what we call the Sagebrush effect.

[Sean_A]

...
GJ

Go play Pennard again.  If you liked Perranporth, the penny should eventually drop.

...

Doubt I would ever bother with Pennard again. As I indicated, it seems to me that some of its high regard comes from demanding certain shots to survive. I played with Mr. 4-0-0 KPer, and we both thought the course exhibited too much of what we call the Sagebrush effect.

GJ

You are definitely one of the guys on this site who I utterly fail to comprehend...and I do literally mean I can't make sense of what you write because its often so contrary to my experiences.  Sometimes life is like that.

Ciao

[Dan Boerger]

So, I just received my copy yesterday ...

1 - Signed by Tom. Nice touch.

2 - VERY well written ... kudos to all involved in the writing and editing. Truly an enjoyable read.

3 - I am absolutely at the lower end (guessing very low end) regarding both my playing experience and "understanding" of GCA, but I obviously know what I like, don't like, etc. So, with that in mind, I was not surprised at the scoring for Swinley Forest (I have played twice), but I was surprised the par 3's on that course were not more celebrated. They blew me away.

4 - Golspie is a course I really like because of its schizophrenic nature and also received lower scores (IMO) for the same. Don't feel the inland holes are overly weak. Again, just an opinion.

5 - I've played in Scotland, Ireland and (even more) in the London area. Every year a group of us (UK, Ireland and 'Mericans) play on either side of the pond. Primarily through GCA we've been selecting many of the courses with great success. (No way I would have searched out New Zealand or Woking, but very glad I did both.) This book provides even more guidance, which makes it a great resource and one I will recommend to others.

[John Mayhugh]

Doubt I would ever bother with Pennard again. As I indicated, it seems to me that some of its high regard comes from demanding certain shots to survive. I played with Mr. 4-0-0 KPer, and we both thought the course exhibited too much of what we call the Sagebrush effect.

Not sure what you mean by the Sagebrush effect?

I'm not a very good player, but loved Pennard, especially the par 5s.  I don't remember it being overly demanding of any type of shot, though a bit of control over your second on the 17th is strongly advised.

[Bill_McBride]

...
GJ

Go play Pennard again.  If you liked Perranporth, the penny should eventually drop.

...

Doubt I would ever bother with Pennard again. As I indicated, it seems to me that some of its high regard comes from demanding certain shots to survive. I played with Mr. 4-0-0 KPer, and we both thought the course exhibited too much of what we call the Sagebrush effect.

Since I have also played Sagebrush, I am also curious about this "Sagebrush effect."   Feel free to elaborate. 

[Garland Bayley]

Sagebrush effect. Fairways appear to be quite wide and accepting, but with fast and firm conditions, they are actually effectively narrow, and demand accuracy. Balls tend to run off into the rough and are difficult to locate. You play there in June, with the longest days of the year, and still spend so much time looking for those balls that run off the fairway so that 36 holes is an effective maximum.

Second shot on 16 at Pennard has balls running into rough, so much so that there appears to commonly be interference with tee shots on 17.
Drive on 18 at Pennard clearly exhibits the Sagebrush effect. Drive on 17 not only exhibits the effect as the fairway is severely sloped, but leaves a blind shot over gorse. With a 2:30 tee times on each of two days in early September, play was so slow from this effect that darkness was threatening on each finish.

[Rich Goodale]

Pennard is highly overrated on this site, particularly in regards to its seriously goofy par 5's.

Play Southerndown instead.

[Carl Nichols]

Sagebrush effect. Fairways appear to be quite wide and accepting, but with fast and firm conditions, they are actually effectively narrow, and demand accuracy. Balls tend to run off into the rough and are difficult to locate. You play there in June, with the longest days of the year, and still spend so much time looking for those balls that run off the fairway so that 36 holes is an effective maximum.

Second shot on 16 at Pennard has balls running into rough, so much so that there appears to commonly be interference with tee shots on 17.
Drive on 18 at Pennard clearly exhibits the Sagebrush effect. Drive on 17 not only exhibits the effect as the fairway is severely sloped, but leaves a blind shot over gorse. With a 2:30 tee times on each of two days in early September, play was so slow from this effect that darkness was threatening on each finish.

If they had water hazards instead you could've just dropped a ball and moved along.  

[Garland Bayley]

Sagebrush effect. Fairways appear to be quite wide and accepting, but with fast and firm conditions, they are actually effectively narrow, and demand accuracy. Balls tend to run off into the rough and are difficult to locate. You play there in June, with the longest days of the year, and still spend so much time looking for those balls that run off the fairway so that 36 holes is an effective maximum.

Second shot on 16 at Pennard has balls running into rough, so much so that there appears to commonly be interference with tee shots on 17.
Drive on 18 at Pennard clearly exhibits the Sagebrush effect. Drive on 17 not only exhibits the effect as the fairway is severely sloped, but leaves a blind shot over gorse. With a 2:30 tee times on each of two days in early September, play was so slow from this effect that darkness was threatening on each finish.

If they had water hazards instead you could've just dropped a ball and moved along.  

Sorry, but if the water hazard was a pond, I would have hit into the rough on the other side.

[Sean_A]

Pennard is highly overrated on this site, particularly in regards to its seriously goofy par 5's.

Play Southerndown instead.

....and I can usually count on liking the exact opposite of that which Rihc promotes.  In this case though, its more a matter of why not play both?  If however, one must choose, definitely take the goofy 5s  

20. Carnoustie Burnside: What are these guides up to, a snoozefest?  Burnside belongs.  Even more concerning, none of the four guides lists Burnside among courses to see.   

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Pennard is highly overrated on this site, particularly in regards to its seriously goofy par 5's.

Play Southerndown instead.

....and I can usually count on liking the exact opposite of that which Rihc promotes.  In this case though, its more a matter of why not play both?  If however, one must choose, definitely take the goofy 5s  

20. Carnoustie Burnside: What are these guides up to, a snoozefest?  Burnside belongs.  Even more concerning, none of the four guides lists Burnside among courses to see.   

Ciao

Sorry to disappoint you, Sean, but I am on record on this site as a lover of the Burnside.

Ricardo

[jeffwarne]

Pennard is highly overrated on this site, particularly in regards to its seriously goofy par 5's.

Play Southerndown instead.

Not even close.
and I think Southerndown is pretty good.

I've played Pennard 4 times and Southerndown 4 times-in fact I skipped a practice round for an event at Southerndown to go play Pennard again.
Pennard is spiritual,at first a bit confusing, super linksy with rumpled and crinkled ground, and epic scenery.

Southerndown, while is a good downland course, is still a downland course with many similar feeling holes due to gorse encroachment (though as of July last year they've made good strides)

While the view from the clubhouse, 1 and #2 at Southerndown is incredible, looking outward from virtually every hole at Pennard is awe inspiring

[Garland Bayley]

... looking outward from virtually every hole at Pennard is awe inspiring

You must be a lot taller than they say you are.
After playing the south coast of Wales and the southwest coast of England, I thought Pennard was one of the more pedestrian scenic wise of the lot.

[Rich Goodale]

Let's agree to disagree, Jeff.  I've only played both courses in competitions, over the past 5 years, and while I might go to Pennard for fun and a bit of goofiness, I'd go to Southerndown if I wanted to play proper GCA golf.  To each his or her own.

Rich

[jeffwarne]

Let's agree to disagree, Jeff.  I've only played both courses in competitions, over the past 5 years, and while I might go to Pennard for fun and a bit of goofiness, I'd go to Southerndown if I wanted to play proper GCA golf.  To each his or her own.

Rich

Different strokes for different folks Rich
Pennard in a stroke play competition could be a bit white-knuckly on a few holes, though I often play a course like Pennard better in such a situation as I would simply employ a very safe line on holes like 5 and 17

GJ,
The tall thing is a myth
Which course in Wales was more scenic than Pennard? (hint, you need to look towards the water, the beach,the cliffs and the river)
Royal St. david's no
Aberdovey-charming, but no
Borth-on the ocean, but no
Cardigan-pretty scenic, but not quite
Tenby-maybe out towards 9 but no
Ashburnham-no
Royal Porthcawl-good views of the sea, but no
Southerndown-no
P&K-definitely no

SW England?
Trevose-in places but no
Perranporth-absolutely loved it-mini Ballybunion-need to go back,but no
Bude-no
West Cornwall-beautiful, but no
St, Enodoc-pretty damn scenic-maybe
Westward Ho-no
Saunton-no

[Sean_A]

Pennard is highly overrated on this site, particularly in regards to its seriously goofy par 5's.

Play Southerndown instead.

....and I can usually count on liking the exact opposite of that which Rihc promotes.  In this case though, its more a matter of why not play both?  If however, one must choose, definitely take the goofy 5s 

20. Carnoustie Burnside: What are these guides up to, a snoozefest?  Burnside belongs.  Even more concerning, none of the four guides lists Burnside among courses to see.   

Ciao

Sorry to disappoint you, Sean, but I am on record on this site as a lover of the Burnside.

Ricardo

Ya gotta be right once in a while - no? 

I have a lot of time for S'down - 6.  But Pennard definitely kicks it up a notch in just about anything relating to golf. 

The Doak Brain Trust is spot on in this case, but both earn Arble 1*.  If Pennard ever figures out that the animals are good and keeps them on the property 12 months a year, it will get a 2*

21. Eclectic 18:  Just using the consensus list, the nominations and the honourable mentions, below would be my choices.

1. A bit of a no brainer for Masa; Machrihanish.

2. Portsalon, good call from Tom.

3. Woking, don't know who had in the back of their mind (I suspect Tom), but its a better hole than #4. 

4. It has to be St Enodoc, the Brain Trust should have listened to Tom.

5. Sacred 9, no brainer from Tom.

6. Difficult not to dip into the honourable mentions again for Painswick, but great 5s are rare; Sunny New.  Tom calls it again.   

7. Ran must have stuck to his guns; Pennard. 

8. Wow, how can I pass on Troon?   

9.  I will stick with Tom and Lahinch.

10. Once again, I am sticking with Tom, Cavendish. 

11. Broken record, Tom again, St Andrews. 

12.  Darius comes through here, Swinley Forest. 

13. I will drag this one from the honourable mentions; Addington.

14. Zero debate, Dornoch. 

15. Tough call here, but I am sort of backed into North Berwick. 

16. If it remains a par 5, Deal, Tom again. 

17. Why not stick with Prestwick? 

18. It has to be Kington and it had to be Tom's idea.   

Thats 10 holes taken from the consensus eclectic and only a few taken from honourable mentions.  These guys pretty much mentioned all the best choices, not surprising.

Ciao

[Matt MacIver]

Tom and all – great book, am enjoying it. 

What stands out most to me so far is the “London and Heathlands” section.  I’ve not been yet but based on all the exceptional reviews and pictures both here and elsewhere its very high on my list.  I know the courses are not links per se but I was led to believe they (can) play very much like them, with several having been built by top tier archies.  And according to the map on p100 it appears more courses have been reviewed in this area than almost any other – maybe it’s just the scale…? 

All that said, I was surprised that not only did Tom not assign a 9 to any course in the region, but no other reviewers did, either.  Not a single 9 in the Heathland.  Have to say that leaves me a bit discouraged, or at least perplexed. 

There does seem to be more 8s than several other regions, too, so it’s got that going for it, which is, well, you know. 

[Garland Bayley]

GJ,
The tall thing is a myth
Which course in Wales was more scenic than Pennard? (hint, you need to look towards the water, the beach,the cliffs and the river)
I know where to look, but from much of the course that view is blocked.

Our courses in common.
Tenby-maybe out towards 9 but no
IMO far more scenic
Ashburnham-no
agreed, in less than pedestrian group
Royal Porthcawl-good views of the sea, but no
by quantity slightly more scenic

SW England?
Perranporth-absolutely loved it-mini Ballybunion-need to go back,but no
Definitely more scenic
Bude-no
agreed, in pedestrian group
West Cornwall-beautiful, but no
more scenic
St, Enodoc-pretty damn scenic-maybe
more scenic
Westward Ho-no
agreed, in pedestrian group
Saunton-no
agreed, in less than pedestrian group

[Eric Smith]

Not including the Berkshire in the Best Lunch section was a dreadful omission!

It's time you write THAT book, Sheehy!

[jeffwarne]

GJ,
The tall thing is a myth
Which course in Wales was more scenic than Pennard? (hint, you need to look towards the water, the beach,the cliffs and the river)
I know where to look, but from much of the course that view is blocked.

Our courses in common.
Tenby-maybe out towards 9 but no
IMO far more scenic
Ashburnham-no
agreed, in less than pedestrian group
Royal Porthcawl-good views of the sea, but no
by quantity slightly more scenic

SW England?
Perranporth-absolutely loved it-mini Ballybunion-need to go back,but no
Definitely more scenic
Bude-no
agreed, in pedestrian group
West Cornwall-beautiful, but no
more scenic
St, Enodoc-pretty damn scenic-maybe
more scenic
Westward Ho-no
agreed, in pedestrian group
Saunton-no
agreed, in less than pedestrian group

We are pretty close in our scenery opinions

I'm often a fan of looks toward the water from a distance, or at a bay with land on the other side,or at a unique landscape such as Pennard's elevated view of the cliffs, beach and river.
I'm less of a fan of direct oceanfront with nothing but open water to look at and nothing else to break up and/or highlight the view.
perhaps someone more eloquent can articulate it better.

[Tom_Doak]

Not including the Berkshire in the Best Lunch section was a dreadful omission!

Apparently, never having eaten lunch at The Berkshire was my dreadful omission.

[Thomas Dai]

Which course in Wales was more scenic than Pennard?
St David's City and Newport Pembs would be two on the coast in with a shout and there's many an inlander such as Llandrindod Wells and Welshpool too. Of course the most scenic place in Wales is the Millenium Stadium when the boyo's are playing at home - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AM4mIlYKG9satb

atb

[Ed Tilley]

The most scenic course in Wales - how has no-one mentioned Nefyn! The golf's not great but the views are amazing!

[Thomas Dai]

I did think of Nefyn, does it count as a 'golf course' plus, it's in North Wales, to some now a suburb of Liverpool and Manchester!:)
Oggi, oggi, oggi!
atb