CONFIDENTIAL GUIDE THOUGHTS

[Jim Nugent]

Doak gives the Old 8 and New 6.  Ran hasn't played the New.  Masa has it 7-5!  

Doak gives TOC an 8??

[John Connolly]

Another thought that came as I keep reading. With all the many references to Dr Mackenzie's work (both still in tact or NLE), it suddenly seemed to me that his work with Bobby Jones at Augusta was a dramatic departure from what he'd done in GB&I. Of course, he was older then and the Augusta site was sui generis and styles had changed over the years, but for all that Augusta really does seem to be a totally different kind of golf course for Dr Mac -- as if the influence of a champion golfer like Mr Jones was very significant, and as if Augusta was actually the first modern golf course, and not a 'golden age' course at all. Just the random riffs of a neophyte here, so I could very well be talking utter nonsense....but that's what occurred to me.

Peter

A modern course based on the principles of the Old Course!

Yes, it is generally accepted that ANGC was to be an Old Course inspired course. But it has clearly departed, as has been discussed ad nauseum here and elsewhere. But that begs the question, and probably a new thread so as to not hijack this one, was AGNC an attempt at early 20th century "minimalism"? If BJ and Dr. M admired TOC, they surely thought it was because of its natural "design" - little to no earth moving. Peter et al, please feel free to move this topic to a new thread if you want to continue - I have no clue as to how!

[Tony_Muldoon]

Doak gives the Old 8 and New 6.  Ran hasn't played the New.  Masa has it 7-5!  

Doak gives TOC an 8??

Jim
Not TOC but  WH

[Mark Chaplin]

Hillside at 7? That makes the hard shoulder of the M1 a 5!!

[Sean_A]

16. Renaissance Club: Quite frankly, there are preciously few courses in Scotland that I think are clearly better than Ren Club...I count three. Okay, there has been a bit of a tradeoff with the course narrowed, but wonderful new holes added.  Yet the inherent quality of the design is ever present.  I can't fathom why the team hasn't recognized Ren Club as one of the very best in the region and Scotland.  The recent narrowness can't explain it all because Ren Club is not wildly out of line with many champ links.  Tom gets a pass to avoid charges of bias, but between one or the other, Darius and Masa are telling me that courses such as Brora, Machrihanish and St Andrews New are worth my time more than Ren Club is.  This is something I can't get my head around.  

Ciao

[Paul_Turner]

Sean

I think it's the problem with rankings and lists in general, people are naturally reluctant to effectively demote old favourites for good/great new courses.  It's treated like a zero sum game.

[Paul_Turner]

PS

Worst scale rating in the book is Masa's 2 "a mediocre course with little architectural merit" for West Cornwall (Lelant)

[Sean_A]

Sean

I think it's the problem with rankings and lists in general, people are naturally reluctant to effectively demote old favourites for good/great new courses.  It's treated like a zero sum game.

Paul

This isn't a ranking.  There can be as many 8s as a region allows.  So there is no need to demote old favourites...plenty of room for old and new.

Yes, a 2 for West Cornwall is incredibly harsh.  I am inclined to think its more like a 5.  The front nine alone should merit a 4.  

While a lot of scores are very reasonable, sometimes when one looks at comparative scores between courses it can cause one to scratch his head.  For instance, Nefyn outscoring Lelant is way out in right field for me.   

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

While a lot of scores are very reasonable, sometimes when one looks at comparative scores between courses it can cause one to scratch his head.  For instance, Nefyn outscoring Lelant is way out in right field for me.  

Isn't Nefyn usually ranked in the UK top 100 and Lelant nowhere close?  

It has been a very long time since I visited Lelant, but isn't it a very short course?  I am not saying that should override everything else, but I don't think our comparative ranking of the two courses is out in left field, either.

[Sean_A]

I don't think our comparative ranking of the two courses is out in left field, either.

No, no, no.  Its way out in Kaline country...where it would be caught 

Ciao

[Paul_Turner]

Sean

yes but I don't think it works out that way because the authors do magazine rankings too....so if they give a new course an "8" it logically has to make a "Top 100"list and an old favourite has to be chucked out!

[Paul_Turner]

I like Nefyn and think Lelant is of similar quality.  It's 30 yrs since I've played Lelant but even a quick glance at the website and it ain't no "2".

[Paul_Turner]

Ran is mostly more positive that his co-authors but it's interesting that he's slightly less keen on:  Dornoch, Ganton, North Berwick, Worlington, Rye.    We know he never really was a fan of Muirfield and Portrush. (If 2013 Open won't convince nothing will!) and even if the rough was cut back I think only Portrush would get a "9".

I'm not sure Ran will like Painswick at all. 

Tom is more positive this time.  Only a handful go down a point (Portrush because of rough, Troon, W Gailes)....but lot more go up by a point or two.   There are lots more "5s"

But I wish The Belfry had been kept a "4".

[James Boon]

Well I've thoroughly enjoyed reading through and dipping in and out of the book since it arrived, so thanks Tom, Ran, Masa and Darius!

Thanks also to Sean for his thoughts on the book as until he mentioned it and then I looked for it, I hadn't seen the list of 10 Most Wanted courses at the very back! All I will say on that front after Tom wasn't so impressed with Beau is that I promise not to accompany Ran if and when he gets there... 

I haven't bothered to compare this book with the previous edition but imagine there is more than enough to discuss on that front. The one thing I recall is that I'm sure Addington was in the gourmet choice but is no longer?

A few observations:

Sherwood Forest deserves more than 3 for certain!

Delighted to see Hollinwell make the gourmet choice and it looks like Ran is to thank for that, but calling the courses in the gourmet choice by their "local" name and then their "formal" name is Notts GC, elsewhere must be confusing for any none GCA geeks reading the book?

Also good to see it on the Best Condition list, but it is missing from the Longest Courses list as its 30yds longer than Ballyliffin 

I can't believe the 17th at Painswick doesn't recieve a ? or a ?! at least?

Enjoyed the write up on Askernish in the gourmet choice!

I'm sure I will discover more joys as I continue to dip in and out of the book...

Cheers,

James

[Jud_T]

Even though most have been written about in these pages, after my first read through of the book I'm more inclined to make time for the following courses, which I suppose is the point:  Tain, Cullen, Fraserburgh, Murcar, Kingarrock, Panmure, Pitlochry, Scotscraig, Gullane 1&3, Kilspindie, Isle of Harris. Shiskine, Alwoodly, Bamburgh Castle, Halifax, Sand Moor, Delamare Forest, Reddish Vale, Siloth, Cavendish, Kington, Whittington Heath, Hunstanton, Seacroft, Prince's, Birkshire Blue, Camberly Heath, Hindhead, Huntercombe, Liphook, New Zealand, Reigate Heath, Tandridge, Hayling Island, Leckford Old, Mulranny, Cork and Portmarnock Hotel.

[Garland Bayley]

PS

Worst scale rating in the book is Masa's 2 "a mediocre course with little architectural merit" for West Cornwall (Lelant)

What is he doing a rating of? Courses that sticks should go play or avoid? Maybe these guys should do a rating for the rest of us. That rating would give West Cornwall a 7 and Saunton East a 2.

[Bill_McBride]

Even though most have been written about in these pages, after my first read through of the book I'm more inclined to make time for the following courses, which I suppose is the point:  Tain, Cullen, Fraserburgh, Murcar, Kingarrock, Panmure, Pitlochry, Scotscraig, Gullane 1&3, Kilspindie, Isle of Harris. Shiskine, Alwoodly, Bamburgh Castle, Halifax, Sand Moor, Delamare Forest, Reddish Vale, Siloth, Cavendish, Kington, Whittington Heath, Hunstanton, Seacroft, Prince's, Birkshire Blue, Camberly Heath, Hindhead, Huntercombe, Liphook, New Zealand, Reigate Heath, Tandridge, Hayling Island, Leckford Old, Mulranny, Cork and Portmarnock Hotel.

Not Painswick?       Gourmet's Choice at 4818 yards.  Should be on everyone's bucket list.   

[Jud_T]

Painswick was already on my to do list...

[Mark_Rowlinson]

This is brewing up nicely! Well done the authors on stimulating our debates!

[Tom_Doak]

I haven't bothered to compare this book with the previous edition but imagine there is more than enough to discuss on that front. The one thing I recall is that I'm sure Addington was in the gourmet choice but is no longer?


Delighted to see Hollinwell make the gourmet choice and it looks like Ran is to thank for that, but calling the courses in the gourmet choice by their "local" name and then their "formal" name is Notts GC, elsewhere must be confusing for any none GCA geeks reading the book?

Cheers,

James

James:

I would have written up Hollinwell if Ran hadn't claimed it.  As for using the "local" names for courses, how are the uninitiated to learn if we don't teach them?

I did feel bad leaving The Addington out of the Gourmet's Choice, but we had to draw the line somewhere on heathland courses around London, and once Darius and Masa had included their faves, it was down to me to choose between The Addington and Walton Heath.  Tough call for me, but to some degree, having chosen the very quirky Painswick made me lean away from Addington in favor of Walton.

[Paul_Turner]

I think the Addington should have been kept because Tom's book kind of rescued it from being completely forgotten for decades.  It wasn't highlighted in the old AA guide that I know Tom used in 1982 and although I lived in nearby Crystal Palace it was never promoted as a course to play...

Peter Allen had Addington in his books but it didn't filter through to the magazines.

You can kind of tell that Tom used the old AA guide in 1982 because of the somewhat obscure courses he chose to visit that do well in that book:  Northampton, Ashridge, Crieff, Boat of Garten
But the Addington recommendation must have come from another source.

[Paul Gray]

Even though most have been written about in these pages, after my first read through of the book I'm more inclined to make time for the following courses, which I suppose is the point:  Tain, Cullen, Fraserburgh, Murcar, Kingarrock, Panmure, Pitlochry, Scotscraig, Gullane 1&3, Kilspindie, Isle of Harris. Shiskine, Alwoodly, Bamburgh Castle, Halifax, Sand Moor, Delamare Forest, Reddish Vale, Siloth, Cavendish, Kington, Whittington Heath, Hunstanton, Seacroft, Prince's, Birkshire Blue, Camberly Heath, Hindhead, Huntercombe, Liphook, New Zealand, Reigate Heath, Tandridge, Hayling Island, Leckford Old, Mulranny, Cork and Portmarnock Hotel.

Pedantic note from a local: Please NEVER call it Hayling Island Golf Club. The place is Hayling Island, the club just Hayling Golf Club. I have no idea what it's referred to in the CG as I'm waiting until Christmas for mine.

I had no idea that the authors had been to Leckford but I'm pleased to say that they do now accept society bookings. General play however is still limited to John Lewis staff.

[Tony_Muldoon]

PS

Worst scale rating in the book is Masa's 2 "a mediocre course with little architectural merit" for West Cornwall (Lelant)

While enjoying the BUDA cup this September I was reminded just how stunningly beautiful Cornwall is and that our once annual family visits somehow ceased about 15 years ago!

So we've booked a house in St Ives for New Year.  Luckily I had checked out the following and will be very surprised if what I find is indeed a 2.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39193.0.html

[Paul_Turner]

Leckford was always most intriguing to me because it was a Colt course, 9 holes and you couldn't get on it!  Really was members, JL employees and their guests only.  There's a photo tour from about 10years ago on GCA pleased Tom gave it a thumbs up.  Anyone else ventured there?  It's not exactly in a prime area for other courses (I visited Tidworth too but it's not as good).

[Sean_A]

Spangles

I look forward to your thoughts on West Cornwall.  On my last visit in harsh wind and cold, the course played beautifully.  So many links lose their charm in the wind that I had to bump Lelant up a notch for its playability.  While I would only recommend playing the course if you are in the area, I would most definitely make the trip down...Lelant remains in my top 36 links, which is the base I use for the Torda Cup.  It is however a great shame the daily tee on the opener has been moved way forward.  Be sure to ask for permission to play the white tee...its one of the most butt clenching openers in golf.  I still find it wild that a panelist could give Lelant a 2 and Nefyn a 6.  Despite Tom's protests, this is right field talk. 

Paul

Addington has steadily dropped from my favour in recent years.  The conditioning is always well below par. I stripped it of a 1* rating last year...dropping from 7 to 6 in my Doak estimation.  What a shame because the design really stands out among the London heathland crowd...even though Addy isn't really a heathland.

17. Yelverton: "...a lovely day in the country." is a fine description.  I want to go back some day.  The architecture is pleasantly simple.

Paul

It never occurred to me that these guys would rate these courses in line with mag rankings.  I know Doak eventually started using his numbers as rankings, but I think that was a mistake.  This book should be about recommendations, not rankings.  I hope it was written with that intention in mind because its quite easy to believe course A is better than Course B, but recommend Course B over Course A.  Isn't this the major issue with places like Bearwood Lakes and The Grove.  Nice courses for sure, but are they really recommendable for the sort of chap who buys the CG? 

Ciao