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Tommy Williamsen

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Re: BALLYHACK GC hole by hole—THIRTEENTH hole posted
« Reply #225 on: November 17, 2014, 09:26:46 PM »
#13 par three- 228,214,178,168,135

This hole has more options and more opportunities for fun than any of the par threes.  It plays downhill to a double green it shares with 15.  The green is not as wild as the third green but it does have a lot of slope and a little bowl.  When the greens are running fast anything above the hole is destined to run past its mark.  The green slopes left to right and back to front.  When the pin is near the bowl putting becomes an exercise in imagination.  I have had some putts break eight to ten feet.  Some of the putts you just have to feel.  You cannot just pick a spot; you have to envision the putt.  If the shot from the tee is stimulating putting becomes exciting.

Adding to the excitement are the different angles.  There are tees that are straight toward the hole and tees that come in from the left.  I find the most joy in playing the hole all the way back from both angles. 

The tees that are normally played give you this look.





This is the view from the left side.  I find this angle a little more demanding.  I tend to be above the hole more because I defend against the bunkers on the right.  There, however, a lot of room on this huge green.


From this angle and this pin placement, three is a good score.


Looking back.

Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: BALLYHACK GC hole by hole—THIRTEENTH hole posted
« Reply #226 on: November 17, 2014, 09:28:54 PM »
Wade, I hadn't noticed that the pin is visible from every tee.  That is really interesting.  I don't think I have ever seen that before.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Chris DeNigris

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Re: BALLYHACK GC hole by hole—THIRTEENTH hole posted
« Reply #227 on: November 17, 2014, 09:46:02 PM »
Wade, I hadn't noticed that the pin is visible from every tee.  That is really interesting.  I don't think I have ever seen that before.

Tommy- you might not be able to see them all but Wade probably can.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 09:50:12 PM by Chris DeNigris »

Matt MacIver

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Re: BALLYHACK GC hole by hole—THIRTEENTH hole posted
« Reply #228 on: November 17, 2014, 10:07:07 PM »
On Tough Day do they swap pins and put 13 where 15 should go, and verse vica?

Neil Johnston

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Re: BALLYHACK GC hole by hole—THIRTEENTH hole posted
« Reply #229 on: November 17, 2014, 10:52:19 PM »
I butchered this hole but it was among my favorites during George Cup weekend. The combination of elevation, wind and green size made club selection very challenging, in my opinion. It was equally challenging as some of the approaches on the front. I air mailed the green once and came up short the next day.   But it's so much fun to watch a well struck ball stay in the air for such a long time.

The hole from the back, though shorter than the 3rd, is far more visually intimidating.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: BALLYHACK GC hole by hole—THIRTEENTH hole posted
« Reply #230 on: November 17, 2014, 11:12:12 PM »
Wade, I hadn't noticed that the pin is visible from every tee.  That is really interesting.  I don't think I have ever seen that before.

Tommy- you might not be able to see them all but Wade probably can.

Touche'
Guess I'm too old to grow anymore.

« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 11:16:25 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Carl Rogers

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Re: BALLYHACK GC hole by hole—THIRTEENTH hole posted
« Reply #231 on: November 18, 2014, 06:44:41 AM »
the back pin on what I would call a shelf is a tough location.  Made a miracle 2 putt on Sunday of the George Cup weekend.  Club is selection is more than hard, it is a pure spin of the roulette wheel.  As Ballyhack is, for me, about playing a course that is 100% unique, this is drop shot par 3 is the longest and has the most elevation change of any par 3 I have played anywhere.

Informal poll: is the hole the longest and most downhill par 3 you have ever played?
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Andy Hughes

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Re: BALLYHACK GC hole by hole—THIRTEENTH hole posted
« Reply #232 on: November 18, 2014, 08:49:48 AM »
(Tommy, thanks for all the pictures/commentary. I can't believe how much I miss the place.)
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: BALLYHACK GC hole by hole—THIRTEENTH hole posted
« Reply #233 on: November 18, 2014, 12:05:52 PM »
(Tommy, thanks for all the pictures/commentary. I can't believe how much I miss the place.)

I feel the same way when I don't get there for a few weeks.  When this cold snap ends I will hop down for a couple of days.  I'm not sure what it is that gets in your blood.  Much of t is the quality of the course, much is the stunning quality of the beauty, and some is the staff who makes everyone feel welcome and tends to anything we could want.  It is the entire experience.  It is not a place for trunk slammers who play and leave.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: BALLYHACK GC hole by hole—THIRTEENTH hole posted
« Reply #234 on: November 18, 2014, 03:59:04 PM »
On Tough Day do they swap pins and put 13 where 15 should go, and verse vica?

I have only played one tough day and they did not reverse the pins.  Door fun, however, I have reversed them during regular play. The course is generally uncrowded so it didn't interfere with anyone.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Chris DeNigris

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Re: BALLYHACK GC hole by hole—THIRTEENTH hole posted
« Reply #235 on: November 18, 2014, 04:27:19 PM »
On Tough Day do they swap pins and put 13 where 15 should go, and verse vica?

I have only played one tough day and they did not reverse the pins.  Door fun, however, I have reversed them during regular play. The course is generally uncrowded so it didn't interfere with anyone.

Everyday is Tough Day at the Hack :)    I've reversed them unintentionally.

Looking at your first pic of 13 it struck me that it would be really cool to make the front left fairway section green- and have a triple green. Then you could do a Dismal White and choose whatever pin you want to play to :)

Paul Gray

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Re: BALLYHACK GC hole by hole—THIRTEENTH hole posted
« Reply #236 on: November 18, 2014, 04:30:42 PM »
Much as it looks like a good hole, you mention the various option but it looks to me as if you fly it to the green or else.

Could anyone expand on the options available?
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Kevin Lynch

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Re: BALLYHACK GC hole by hole—THIRTEENTH hole posted
« Reply #237 on: November 18, 2014, 06:05:49 PM »
I'm hoping to get back into this thread, but have spent the day tunneling out from out Lake Effect Snow blast (~30 inches so far w no slow down in sight).  Now in a power outage. 

If you've ever wondered how lake effect snowstorms work, this pic of Downtown Buffalo may help.



Unfortunately, my home is in the upper left part of this picture, and not in the part of Buffalo that is being spared.



Tommy Williamsen

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Re: BALLYHACK GC hole by hole—THIRTEENTH hole posted
« Reply #238 on: November 18, 2014, 07:24:31 PM »
Much as it looks like a good hole, you mention the various option but it looks to me as if you fly it to the green or else.

Could anyone expand on the options available?
Paul, there is a bail out area left and short of the green.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Chris DeNigris

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Re: BALLYHACK GC hole by hole—THIRTEENTH hole posted
« Reply #239 on: November 18, 2014, 08:34:22 PM »
The options are the various tee boxes- the hole plays significantly different from each one.

Jonathan Mallard

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Re: BALLYHACK GC hole by hole—THIRTEENTH hole posted
« Reply #240 on: November 18, 2014, 09:04:32 PM »
#12. I'm happy with 5. Any way I can get it. It's a very solid hole. You earn your score at 5 or below. If you try and do something you're incapable of, more than likely you'll be punished. Severely.

#13. I haven't figured out the preferred play on this hole. Both times in the George Cup that I've played it, our team had quite a bunker shot from 40 yards away from the green. I see Tommy's point about the bail out area left, and will have to think about it some more.

Now for some more statistical analysis. #12 had the 5th lowest standard deviation with 13 the 17th. I think what that tells us is that while 12 played the 3rd hardest - it was fairly uniformly hard for everyone. No wide dispersal pattern like we saw at 11. Likewise, the tight grouping of the scores at the 13th suggests that play was much more uniform on the hole.

While we're on these two holes, let's go ahead and compare the data between 3 and 13 and 11 and 12.

#3 was the 9th hardest, 13 the 12th. The average stroke difference was .1962 shots, with sigma = .1869
#11 was the 6th hardest, 12 the 3rd. The average stroke difference was .0518 shots with sigma = .2409!!

Short story: Lots more different ways that folks played 11 vs 12 than 3 vs 13 for two similarly difficult holes. Which I think has been reflected in the commentary we've seen so far.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: BALLYHACK GC hole by hole—THIRTEENTH hole posted
« Reply #241 on: November 19, 2014, 05:59:19 PM »
I'm hoping to get back into this thread, but have spent the day tunneling out from out Lake Effect Snow blast (~30 inches so far w no slow down in sight).  Now in a power outage. 

If you've ever wondered how lake effect snowstorms work, this pic of Downtown Buffalo may help.



Unfortunately, my home is in the upper left part of this picture, and not in the part of Buffalo that is being spared.


Wow Kevin. That is some serious snow.  Winter comes early this year.  Stay warm and don't forget to release fully when you shovel the snow.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Kevin Lynch

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Re: BALLYHACK GC hole by hole—THIRTEENTH hole posted
« Reply #242 on: November 19, 2014, 08:58:19 PM »

Wow Kevin. That is some serious snow.  Winter comes early this year.  Stay warm and don't forget to release fully when you shovel the snow.


I'm still confident I'll be playing again in December.  Of course, that will be after the massive flooding expected next week as this melts.  

The final tally for the past 36 hours was ~48 inches in my town, with a few more feet forecast for tomorrow.  However, I'm feeling fortunate because some neighbors ~7-8 miles north were hit with 5.5 - 6 feet.  Also, was without power for only 5 hours, so really nothing horrific. 

Found another pic which illustrated the difference a few miles can make in terms of snowfall:




And one final shot of the city skyline:



« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 09:00:44 PM by Kevin Lynch »

Kevin Lynch

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Re: BALLYHACK GC hole by hole—THIRTEENTH hole posted
« Reply #243 on: November 19, 2014, 09:26:27 PM »
Back to the thread at hand.  Here's the 13th hole aerial:




Much as it looks like a good hole, you mention the various option but it looks to me as if you fly it to the green or else.

Could anyone expand on the options available?

Besides the options from Chris & Tommy, a few were discovered by accident during the last George Cup.

- If you push a hybrid roughly 15 yards right of your intended line, you can hit on the side of the monster swale and have it kick all the way back left to the pin (orange line). 

- Or as Jonathan Mallard did, you can block your shot to within 10 feet of the 15th pin, 3 putt back to the 13th, and win the hole when your opponent brain cramps and 4 putts from 30 feet under the hole.


While Tommy said this green wasn't as wild as #3, it is certainly more frightening to me.  There are a few nasty pins which don't look like anything special at all from the tee.

I have always enjoyed this hole, and as others have alluded, it's so much fun to watch a well struck ball hang forever.

Kevin Lynch

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Re: BALLYHACK GC hole by hole—THIRTEENTH hole posted
« Reply #244 on: November 19, 2014, 11:02:04 PM »
Club is selection is more than hard, it is a pure spin of the roulette wheel.  As Ballyhack is, for me, about playing a course that is 100% unique, this is drop shot par 3 is the longest and has the most elevation change of any par 3 I have played anywhere.

Informal poll: is the hole the longest and most downhill par 3 you have ever played?

Carl,

To be honest, I'd never really thought of this as a "drop shot" hole, simply because of the size of the target.  When I think of "drop-shot" holes, I usually envision a scenario where missing long or short is a significant risk because of a shallower depth (requiring more precision in distance control). 

Depending on which sets of tees you use, you have anywhere from 35 to 50 yards of depth to play with, so if you aim for the middle of the green, you still have a decent amount of room for error (in terms of distance control).  However, given how difficult it is to 2 putt from above the hole, maybe I should start thinking of it more in terms of a precision hole.   From the 178 and less tees, I'll think precision, but from anywhere over 200, I'm just thinking on the green.

*****************
As for your informal poll, Ballyhack's drop is roughly 35 feet from the middle 4 tees (168-215). 

However, that wouldn't come close to the biggest drop shot of length.

Mill Creek (near Rochester) is situated on a drumlin and features a 180-200 yard par 3 with ~80 feet of drop.  This is right after a 140 yard hole that rises ~55 feet.  But that's still not the winner.  Holiday Valley is a part time golf-course, part time ski resort in Ellicottville (about 40 miles S of Buffalo). 

The 15th is a 200 yard hole with a 102 foot drop (1675 to 1573 per Google Earth).  That one is much tougher than Ballyhack, because the slope of the hill obscures most of the green, which is only a 26 yard circle to begin with.

That isn't even the most severe elevation change on the course:

The 13th is a 446 yard par four which falls from 1,895 to 1,690 feet (205 drop).  To give you perspective, the 15th at Ballyhack drops roughly 110 feet over the entire hole (from the uppermost Big Lick tees).

The 17th is a 459 yard Par 5 which is virtually unreachable in 2, as it climbs from 1,585 feet to 1,724 feet (+139 feet).  Of course, the 429 yard 18th tumbles back from 1,700 feet to 1,585 feet. 

If you're ever in the Western New York region, I'll take you around to a few of my formative courses, and you'll understand why elevation change like that found at Ballyhack isn't all that unusual for me.


Tommy Williamsen

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Re: BALLYHACK GC hole by hole—FOURTEENTH hole posted
« Reply #245 on: November 20, 2014, 09:05:46 AM »
#14 408, 361, 361, 306, 271

This is one of my favorite holes, albeit one of the stoutest holes on the course.  Every shot is fraught with danger.  Any shot is not resolutely struck it will find misfortune.  When I go to Ballyhack I am usually there for two or three days and play at least 36 a day.  Some trips I will find great success on fourteen and sometimes it will be a card wrecker.  I make very few birdies because most pin placements are tough to get near and the second shot is very demanding.  Yard for yard it is one of the most challenging holes at Ballyhack.

It begins with the tee shot.  It is a bite off as much as you dare kind of shot.  When I play alone I will ball hawk long and left in the brier patch for golf balls.  I never come away disappointed.  ProV1s abound.  A ball that hooks too much will find Br’er Rabbit's hide away.
 Like many holes the various tees give you a different angle.

I have played with a few guys who have gone for the fairway just short of the green with the tee shot.  I guess from the left tee at 361 it has to be a 260-280 yard carry.


Most mortals aim at the cart path. From there it is about 125-140  into a very sloping two level green. This is the view from the right side tees.




The left side gives you a little different look.  The fairway is not as angled and is more straight away.  It is little easier to find the fairway.


This view details the lay of the land from the second shot to the green.


This is the view of the second shot.  It must carry a long chasm and like the first hole has a false front.  This pin is one the second level.  It is a tough pin to find and most shots end up either long or on the first level.


This is a good view of the false front.  Anything that is short of the ball on the green will roll twenty yards.


This is a good view of the false front.  Anything that is short of the ball on the green will roll twenty yards.



This might be the toughest pin on the entire golf course.


From the green looking back toward the fairway.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 09:37:34 AM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jim Sherma

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Re: BALLYHACK GC hole by hole—FOURTEENTH hole posted
« Reply #246 on: November 20, 2014, 09:35:26 AM »
The corner of the course where 13, 14, and 15 reside is a really good stretch of golf.

#13: Very challenging hole. While the green might not have as much movement as the 3rd in terms of ridges and bowls I always feel that the green leaves very difficult putts due to the severity of the more general back to front slope. I would be interested to know if there is more slope in the pinned areas than on other holes. it certainly felt that way to me. Any misses that end up short right are big trouble and a potential lost ball.

#14: Probably the toughest green on the course as far as getting the ball to stop in the right area. Getting out of position on this hole can easily lead to blow-ups. The drive is fairly straightforward as long as you don't get greedy and just play the right distance either at or just right of the cart path that Tommy pointed out. It's at that point that the fun begins. When the pin is in the front bowl you have a very challenging shot knowing that anything on the top shelf leaves a putt that could easily end up down in front of the green, anything that spins too much or comes up a little short will end up down in front of the green, and anything that rolls too far up the back stop can very well pick up too much speed as it rolls back and once again end up down in front of the green. The fringe between the right of the green and the gunch offers some options and I look forward to trying to figure out this approach shot some more. Back pins leave a more straightforward approach and more basic recovery shots.       

Jason Thurman

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Re: BALLYHACK GC hole by hole—FOURTEENTH hole posted
« Reply #247 on: November 20, 2014, 10:57:18 AM »
13, for me, is just an average mid-length par 3. I don't see the "options" that some are referencing. That's not necessarily a bad thing, as I rarely see meaningful options on a par 3. Most of them ask the player to hit a target, and 13 is no different. As others have mentioned, it's a fun hole on which to watch a well-struck shot hang in the air. To me, though, it's no different than most drop-shot par 3s in that regard. I enjoy watching a ball hit from a high elevation hang in the air in virtually any context, and that makes 13 plenty of fun for me. I just don't think it's particularly special -  it's just a mid-length drop-shot hole for me.

What I find more exciting about it is how it fits into the back nine. Ballyhack might not be a pleasant walking course, but that doesn't mean the routing isn't excellent. The double-figure-8 of the back nine is pretty brilliant in the way it follows the ridge and plateau that the entire side plays across and around. In that context, 13 is a crucial hole to not only provide a fun tee shot, but also to set up the way the routing doubles back to the excellent 14th and 15th.

14 is a wonderful hole that reminds me a bit of an uphill version of the 7th at Rustic Canyon, although I think it works quite a bit better. The false front for me is what makes the hole really work, as the "cape-style" tee shot really needs to be judged well to put the ball at a comfortable yardage to avoid coming up just short or overspinning the approach. It's also a real joy to get to the top of the hill and stand on that green, taking in the views of the surrounding mountains. It might be the most scenic spot on the course.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Tim Rooney

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Re: BALLYHACK GC hole by hole—FOURTEENTH hole posted
« Reply #248 on: November 20, 2014, 11:05:27 AM »
This course pictorally appears even better than Pete Dye Club regarding elevation change and options.The greenside bunkering is wonderfully balanced and masterfully shaped.Course seems Great not just good.
Am I missing its short comings?

Carl Rogers

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Re: BALLYHACK GC hole by hole—FOURTEENTH hole posted
« Reply #249 on: November 20, 2014, 12:44:48 PM »
This course pictorally appears even better than Pete Dye Club regarding elevation change and options.The greenside bunkering is wonderfully balanced and masterfully shaped.Course seems Great not just good.
Am I missing its short comings?
there are just a large number of do or die shots on the course, with no possible recovery
....... hitting the 14th green is argueably the most conspicuous example, you can play the hole pretty well and still make a 7.
After the approach shot to 14, the course's scary nature of it's shot making diminishes.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner