BALLYHACK GC hole by hole (new ninth hole see reply 345)

[Tommy Williamsen]

#6 par four  354,334,298,272,242

The safe play is to hit the tee shot just left of the right bunker.  The contours of the ground will feed the ball closer to the green and you will be left with a shot inside 100 yards.

You used a phrase I was unclear about.  What is this "safe shot" phenomenon you speak of?  

Ah, safe is a relative term.  I maybe should have said, "The wise play," something very few who are not George Cup winners understand.

[Brad Hill]

Lester, thanks for the explanation. You alluded to adding more bent in the future and I am curious as to where and when you are able to do this. Did you have this in the original plans or is it mostly adjusted to playability?

[Jonathan Mallard]

I'm a little late to the party, but I'll feel free to chime in anyway. 

General comment: There is plenty of room everywhere. Visually it may not appear so, but if you play off the proper tees, you'll generally have no problem getting around the course if you execute solid, thoughtful shots.

#1 Good starting hole. The carry is more than manageable from the proper tees. My topspin hooks even made it over. If you miss right, you need to miss right BIG. I hit it onto the 3rd tee of #6 in the 2012 George Cup in the Pack. After standing at the sprinkler control to estimate yardage and determine direction. I played almost to the greenside bunker and got it up and down. I was not hitting the topspin hooks back then.

#2 This in my mind might just be the best hole on the course. Pick your line from the tee and have at it. If you hit it solid, you can then think of your options. Try and get it there, or lay up? If you do lay up, the green, especially the left side, tends to slope away from the fairway, so you have to execute your pitch shot precisely or it will get away from you quickly. As Wade noted, with the prevailing wind direction downwind, this matters on the pitch.

#3 Not much to add to Kevin's comments. Nothing to add now that I think further.

#4 I try to remember that I have more room than I see. The play for me is to hit a solid driver at the right edge of the separation strip. I generally don't hit it far enough to run out of fairway. I've seen folks play a little safer to the left, but this can be problematic in trying to approach the green near the pin. The beauty of the hole is that you can play right of the green, and will have a third shot with a chance to make 4. You'll again have to execute your shot, and you can go as high or low as you want to, but you'll have a shot.

#5 One thing I don't think I've seen mentioned is that the drives on 4 and 5 have similar themes. The golfer is presented with a visual that intimates 'hazard' in the brain. The first instinct is to stay away, and left is suggested by the lay of the land. Again, if you go too far left, or turn it over, you'll stand a heightened chance of a lie off the fairway, but without a bail out area as the previous hole. If you miss short, you have a tight lie, and can hit it back in your divot if you don't execute the shot. If you go long, the tiers make a 2 putt problematic, especially if you are in the back with a front pin.

#6. Not much to add here, except to echo Ran's comment in his write-up about the similarities between this one and #5 at Portrush - White Rocks. I had played Portrush before my 2012 trip, and played it again in 2013. To me, the difference in the two is that Gamble is not as penal on distance required for the chosen line. As Tommy noted, you can play right, and the hole will advance your ball toward the green. The theme at White Rocks is pick your line, and execute the correct distance, or else.

I look forward to the remainder of the holes.

[Carl Rogers]

I have no desire to take the hole on from any tees.  I seem to mis-judge the tee shot, generally hitting too much club to far right and too long.  In repeated plays and /or hitting several tee shots, I could probably figure it out.

To me the green runs away from front to back.  My remembrance is that the ball will release a lot.

[Kevin Lynch]

The safe play is to hit the tee shot just left of the right bunker.  The contours of the ground will feed the ball closer to the green and you will be left with a shot inside 100 yards.

Tommy,

Were all those pictures taken last week?  In some shots, the green was clearly visible, but in others, it was obscured much more.  Not sure if that's a function of time and growth, or just the height of the teeing grounds.  Here's a pic from my first visit in 2010.



I'd love to see the view of the green less obstructed, simply for the temptation aspect, but don't know if environmental restrictions are a factor. 


Going back to Carl's theme of visual influence, I was surprised by looking at the aerial photo.  I always felt that the landing area past the left corner of rough was more perpendicular to the line of play.  Looking at it now, I see how much that landing area really runs away from the tee. 

I used to try and play this hole safe and thought that you may drive through the fairway (again, thinking the landing area was perpendicular and very narrow).  Once I saw Andy Hughes hit a shot I swore was in trouble get kicked towards the green, my entire strategy changed.

Now, I'm aiming for the cart path or right greenside bunker with a hopeful draw.  Even if I leave it out to the right a little, the far side of the fairway does serve as a little bit of a backstop.  I've been able to drive this one with a Driver, a 3 Wood and a Hickory over the years, so any thought of the safe route are forever gone from my mind.


However, one feature that I recall quite clearly from my safe-play days is the slope of the fairway between 100 and 150 yards.  Typically, the ball will be above your feet.  With all the trouble on the left, the need to compensate for a pull lie makes a fairly straightforward shot that much more interesting.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Kevin, the first and third pictures are from this year. The second on is from last fall.  I too have given up the safe route and now aim at the cart path and turn it over a bit. I have even hit it to the right of the cart path on the hill and had it bounce toward the green. I love this hole and like so many of the holes gives the player a number of ways to play the hole.

[JC Jones]

The 6th and the 3rd holes, in my opinion, suffer from the back tee boxes.  With both holes, I'd like to see each tee box moved up and the back tee boxes scrapped. 

The greatness of the 3rd green is lost from ~250 yards and the risk/reward aspect of the 6th is gone from ~350 yards.  I think that would increase the fun with everyone getting to move up a box on these holes. 

I also agree with Kevin that, if possible, the vegetation on the 6th should be lowered to reveal more of the green.

[Jason Thurman]

The sixth is a hole that I probably need to play a few more times to get a better idea of all the playing options. I didn't hit a great tee shot and took a pretty conservative line when I played it back in the spring. I wound up in the rough with a simple enough wedge shot to the green that made the hole seem pretty uneventful.

Nevertheless, it's a welcome breather to have a downhill tee shot that's all in front of you on an obvious birdie hole after several holes that are pretty tough pars. In a sense, 6 and 7 might be the two most straightforward holes on the course. There's not much hidden trouble and while decisions still exist, the information needed to make them is readily available as well.

[Kevin Lynch]

4. As everyone mentioned- tough as nails. Kevin's diagrams notwithstanding- I still think if you consider just the upper fairway as the legit playing corridor it's too narrow for this beastly a hole. You have to carry the center rough before it gets wide. Shame the lower fairway couldn't have been 10 yards wider where you could aim there and have a better angle into the green. Risking the chasm would be a cool risk/reward option.  Also think the area short of the green repels balls more down the hill than onto the green (especially coming in from the left side of the fairway) leaving a lot of pitches. Safe but not as nifty as if playing there to bounce on. Most times I've played it has to be a hot  low runner to defeat the slope.

"Kevin's Diagrams?" - you mean the photo image of the actual width?  How manipulative of me.  

I suppose this comes back to the "What is a Wide Fairway" debate.  Looking at the other threads, Tom Doak thought that anything under 35 is narrow, 45 and up is wide.  So just considering the upper fairway, you still have a "wide" fairway, but you only see 25 yards of it.  In this case, I think it plays even a little wider than the actual distance, because the left side of the fairway is sloped and will send pulled tee shots back to the fairway.  And on the right, there's still 30 or so yards before you reach the ravine (plus the "arrester" rough).  If you're in the left rough anywhere past the first tier drop, it's not that the fairway wasn't wide enough - it's simply that you drove through the fairway (more an issue from the Ridge tees than the Ballyhack tees).

Even our esteemed George Cup Champion Tommy Williamsen is quoted as saying "I hit the tee ball relatively straight and like fairways that require accuracy. Anything over 40 yards is wide."  So, this hole must be all mental for Tommy, since he's given a wide fairway (45+) and a downhill approach that favors his Sweet Tea draw.  Tommy should own this hole (and often does, because I recall a 5 foot birdie attempt the last time I played it with him).  (No fee for that bit of mental coaching, Tommy.  That's a George Cup Champion to Champion courtesy). 

It's interesting that you mention playing down the right split fairway as giving a better angle.  It must just be me, because I much prefer approaching this hole from the left side vs. being close to the ravine.  On the approach, the "death miss" for me is in the left greenside sand, as there is  just so much potential for awkward stances and horrendous lies (I could discuss this more, but I don't want to steal Jim Sherma's thunder about some of the bunker features).  As a result, I would rather approach from the left side feeling like I'm shooting away from that trouble than coming in from the right.  To me, it's like having OB left on a hole - I'll tee up on the left side of the box every time.  Plus, from the left side, the slope of the green acts as a backstop.  From the right, I think of it as something that will kick me to the left.  Also, if I recall correctly, the lies on the right side tend to be above my feet, which may promote a pull.  Funny how different people are in approach angle preference.

But even if the right sliver of lower fairway was much wider to make this a true split-fairway hole, I still don't think it would be a preferable route.  Even assuming you prefer that angle, I think you would still want to hit your approach from an elevated fairway vs a lower one (per Google Earth, the upper fairway is 18-20 feet higher).  Plus, just missing the right fairway would be in a ravine, while just missing left on the upper fairway has a built-in safety slope pushing you back towards the fairway.  


As for the area short of the green, you are correct that it will repel certain ball flights rather than bound them onto the green.  But I actually think that's better.  It makes that slope play as a "shot option" rather than a "forgiveness feature."  For example, at one of my local courses, the green fronts are open.  But if I attempt an aerial approach and catch it heavy, I may still bounce onto the green ("forgiveness").  But in Ballyhack's case, you still need to have some "intent" to hit a runner in order to benefit from the slope.  At the last George Cup, I had a great drive and 135 in.  I came under my 9 iron a little, landed about 10 feet short and the ball hit weakly, ultimately falling back down the slope a good 15 yards (which is what I deserved).  But if I'd tried flighting a 7 iron, and hit the same spot, it would have bounced forward onto the green.


The amount of discussion and potential controversy around number 4 tells me it's one of the best holes there.  It strikes me as a hole where some may say "there's too much going on."  I've heard that used a criticism of holes before, and generally never understood why that may be considered a bad thing.  Why wouldn't we want multiple things to consider on a hole?  On this one, you have a diagonal landing area, the need to overcome visual confusion, the need to consider the roll-out of your tee shot if you can crest the hill, three different "target tiers", plus aerial and ground approach options.  This hole has grown on me quite a bit over the last several visits.


Finally, it passes one of my favorite indicators of greatness.  Have you seen a hole similar to it anywhere else?

[Jim Sherma]

Now it is time to catch up.

#3: Everything that everyone said is right on. All of the pin placements are cool in and of themselves. As you move back in terms of yardage the hole becomes too much for most players. I'm a reasonable ball striker and from the back tee or two I know that I am hitting and hoping as far as trying to hit a specific part of the green. Inside of 170 I feel like I have the shot, just not past that, there are many golfers that are much better than me however and that is why the different tee boxes are there.

#4: this hole really weirded me out the first time I played it. I just thought that it was contrived and silly. That first round I juiced one down the middle and just caught the left edge of the rough in the middle of the fairway. Felt like I hit a great hybrid that had no chance of stopping on the green and proceeded to take four from long left. After a bunch of plays this year I really have come to like the hole. I am generally long enough to get to the bottom if I get the ball to land in the fairway. My strategy comes down to this: If you go down the left side you need to hit a little cut off the edge of the fairway, if you go down the right side you need to hit a little draw. Both shots work and I ended up pretty much in the same bowl in the right center of the fairway. Generally I think the cut is a less demanding shot with less horror show outcomes. The hole is playable from the 220 up top as long as you don't challenge the back left too much.

#5: WTF?!?!? This is a serious golf hole that really challenges all parts of your game. The drive is straightforward as long as you don't hit it long enough to mess with the second set of fairway bunkers. Everything is in the second shot. I agree that the right side of the fairway is the place to be. The reason is that it more readily sets up for a cut shot into the green that will get up higher and land softer once you're up there. The green might be a little severe given the shot you have to hit to get there. Crazy-cool hole and one that will not be forgotten by anyone that plays it.

#6: Pretty easy par if you have decent distance control and don't get greedy. The easiest birdie is probably if you can drive it into the left greenside bunker. I find it a fairly awkward pitch from the fairway and try to hit it at the right side bunker 30-50 yards short of the green so that I can bump a runner up towards the pin. I am a lousy wedge player though and a better wedge player should be thinking birdie from here at a higher conversion rate than I do. This and 9 are my least favorite holes on the front. As far as 6 goes I just think that the risks are too great to get too aggressive. Anything short or long of the fairway is a potential lost ball and I have no problem guaranteeing 4 with a chance at 3. I guess it comes down to the maintenance just not allowing a risk-reward ratio that really temps me out of my default comfort zone.

[Tommy Williamsen]

#7 par three—191,188,165,154,123

Number seven is a straightforward par three that asks for a high shot.  The green fits naturally into the lay of the land.  It is one of those  sites that seems to have begged for a green.  I have hit both a high fade and a high draw.  I like the fade better.  I will aim left of the pin and the slope of the green, which is front left to back right, will feed the ball to the hole.  For most pins, it is essential to fly the ball to the green.  Anything short will feed down to the lower right side of the fringe leaving a delicate little pitch from well below the green.  I almost always play the hole from the back tee.  The tee is perched on a hill and gives a great look at the hole.   I also like this pin placement the best.  For some reason, I can get closer to the hole than any other location.  The bunker appears to be closer to the green than it really is, so you really have to trust the yardage.  If you land the ball just over the bunker and a little left of the pin the ball will trundle toward the hole, because the green is sloped front left to back right.  This is the one pin placement you can land short of the green a bit.

From the back tee.




Everything slopes left to right.


There is a little bowl short and right of the green.


The bunker is not a preferred place.


Looking back.

[JBovay]

A quick comment on #5: as with everywhere at Ballyhack, selecting the proper tee box is the key to playability. Playing from the Ridge and Ballyhack tees (i.e., not all the way back), the proper clubs for my approach shots would have been PW, 9I, 8I. (I had between 110 and 130 left to the center of the green, and given the severe uphill nature of the shots, I underclubbed twice.) It's entirely a more manageable shot from those distances, on the flats, than the choices Kevin gave: "Would you rather be 150 yards from a slight downhill lie or lay back to 175-180 and have a flatter lie?"

[Jon Cavalier]

I played Ballyhack yesterday and thought it was spectacular. Perfect fall morning with amazing color only added to the beauty of the course, which was literally in perfect shape. Loved it.

Of course, I took a boatload of photos.


Great tour guys.

[Kevin Lynch]

I played Ballyhack yesterday and thought it was spectacular. Perfect fall morning with amazing color only added to the beauty of the course, which was literally in perfect shape. Loved it.

Of course, I took a boatload of photos.


Great tour guys.

Wow!  That's quite the shot - please add some more as we go along.  But judging from the quality of that last one, you may be a pro photographer and saving them.

[Jon Cavalier]

Kevin:

That's kind of you to say, and I'm glad you liked the photo. I'm not a pro (total amateur in both photography and golf) and I would be happy to post more photos - I just didn't want to distract from the excellent tour Tommy and Co have going on.

I'll throw up some more photos later - for now, here's a one of Ballyhack's excellent maintenance staff:

[Chris DeNigris]

Jon- that is one of the best pics of 10 I've seen. You don't see that angle from the extreme right side often and it really shows off the drama on the last 100 yards of the hole. Echoing Kevin- please post more!

Back a few holes-  I love the feeling of leaving the 5th green (often after a 3 putt) and eagerly anticipating the drive on 6.  It really epitomizes BH for me- high drama, extreme adventure, uncertainty and total fun. I like the BH teebox best, where I can hit a full driver and if hit on the right line- for me about 10 yards right of the cartpath- with a gentle draw will usually give me about a 40-50 yard little pitch. The green is a little beguiling- there's a subtle spine that runs front to back that seems to deflect pitches and putts from any of the pin spots in the back half of the green.  There's a lot more room to miss right than it appears from the tee, as I've experienced a few times, and there's only 100-130 yards in from that bailout area. It's a good option for anyone who wants a shorter carry over the junk.

7 is probably the most ordinary hole at BH- pretty straightforward.  I really like the longer teebox cut into the bank on the right side of the cartpath- calls for about a 195 yard shot but the angle into the green is better for combating the slope and avoiding the fronting bunker. One thing that's neat is the visual you get from the tee with the gorgeous 8th hole serving as the backdrop.

[Carl Rogers]

to get back to the 7th .....
after the scintillating opening drama of the first 6, 7 is a welcome rest.  It is a quiet design gently banking itself into the hillside.

It is a very fair and playable hole.  My memory, is that the green is much deeper than the view from the tee indicates. and the green has a ridge - crown located approximately in the middle  of the green perpendicular to line of play.  From that ridge or crown, it slopes to the front or back to the rear.  Missing right is a bad and severe miss as Tommy's pic of the bunker indicates, but there is a lot of room to hit the green with a run up over the front left bunker.

Not much discussion of the bunkers, yet.  All are attractive, but must be avoided.  They all have very abrupt slopes internally with steep banks.  They are a strong argument for the 64 degree wedge.

[Jon Wiggett]

The 7th looks like a really neat benched green par three. Though it is very difficult to judge from photographs, I do wonder if the bunkers and particularly the front left add anything to the hole.

I am enjoying the tour very much. An interesting and well thought out golf course presented in a very clear and thought provoking way

Jon

[Tommy Williamsen]

I find that there are two ways I play the course.  Sometimes I will try to make a good score and only take a chance when I feel confident of success.  When I do that I can generally put up a decent score, although 80 here is different than 80 other places.  The other way is to play all out on every hole and not care about score.  That is my preferred way to play the course.  When you don't care about score so much Ballyhack is a ball.  My wife loves the challenge of the course and plays it as if there were 18 separate games. She plots he way around and just loves it.  If you try to put up your best score each and every time you play the course you miss some of the fun risk reward shots.  Quite often I will play two or three balls from different tees.  That makes for a really enjoyable round.  The course is never crowded so I don't hold anyone up.

Most of the time I will walk the front nine and walk the back.  If I play 36 I will walk the front both times.  When I had a friend there last week he walked with me and said it was a beautiful hike in the mountains with the bonus of being able to hit a golf ball now and then.

[Kevin Lynch]

A quick comment on #5: as with everywhere at Ballyhack, selecting the proper tee box is the key to playability. Playing from the Ridge and Ballyhack tees (i.e., not all the way back), the proper clubs for my approach shots would have been PW, 9I, 8I. (I had between 110 and 130 left to the center of the green, and given the severe uphill nature of the shots, I underclubbed twice.) It's entirely a more manageable shot from those distances, on the flats, than the choices Kevin gave: "Would you rather be 150 yards from a slight downhill lie or lay back to 175-180 and have a flatter lie?"

JB -

Just to clarify, the longer yardage options I was talking about were when you play the back tees (or the Ballyhack tees into the wind).  These were the choices Lester described to us during a guided tour at the inaugural event.

The first few years I played the George Cup, I really didn't appreciate the difference in lies because the wind was down and you could reach the flatter areas from either the Ridge or Ballyhack tees.  The first time we played the Ballyhack tees with some wind opened my eyes to the many different considerations.  Before, my only thought was "stay short of the bunkers", but there's so much more to consider.

Playing the Big Lick tees this year didn't open my eyes so much as the hole just simply kicked me in the teeth in that wind. 

[Kevin Lynch]

Re: #6 Green - I think everyone has mentioned the difficulty of this green and I would have to concur.  For some reason, it is very difficult to get close.  For as many times as I've driven this green or been 10-20 yards short, I've only birdied it once in ~20 plays.  In comparison, I've birdied the monstrous 4th twice. 

[Kevin Lynch]

Now it is time to catch up.

#3:  Inside of 170 I feel like I have the shot, just not past that, there are many golfers that are much better than me however and that is why the different tee boxes are there.


#5: WTF?!?!? This is a serious golf hole that really challenges all parts of your game. The drive is straightforward as long as you don't hit it long enough to mess with the second set of fairway bunkers. Everything is in the second shot. I agree that the right side of the fairway is the place to be. The reason is that it more readily sets up for a cut shot into the green that will get up higher and land softer once you're up there. The green might be a little severe given the shot you have to hit to get there.


#6:  Anything short or long of the fairway is a potential lost ball and I have no problem guaranteeing 4 with a chance at 3. I guess it comes down to the maintenance just not allowing a risk-reward ratio that really temps me out of my default comfort zone.

#3 - Jim - You're being way too modest about your abilities beyond 170 yards. I saw enough shots from you to know this is playable for you from the 211 tees (as well as other players).  The green is huge, so people can hit hybrid or 3 wood and have a reasonable chance of hitting the green.  It may not be an easy 2 putt, but there's plenty of space to land.  And if the pin's in the bowl, you can fire dead at the pin because landing in the bunker short is a relatively easy shot given the funneling nature.

As for the 250 tees - that's simply something you try once or twice to see what it's like to hit Driver or 3-wood on a Par 3 (or play it like a very short 4).


#5 - Between this hole and #1, it's interesting to hear how much an elevated approach gets into players' heads.  Perhaps I'm just used to them from my home course, but we're still talking about shots in the 100-140 range (unless you're getting into the longer tees).  While the severe ridge in the green may make for a slippery downhill putt, it also serves as a backstop on the approach.  Even more, for all the times I've come up just short (my miss is a heavy iron coupled with ego-driven underclubbing), I've thrown 3rd shots against that backstop and had them come back to the hole. 

When the pin is in the lower tier and you're above it, you can usually keep your first putt on the green.  One of the things I like about Ballyhack is that there's often a creative way to get close when you're on the wrong tier, but it involves a counterintuitive line.  Often this involves playing a parabolic shot rather than the direct line from a "traditional" read.

However, it's likely your severity comment may be referring to the back right pin position we had on Sunday, and I'd have to agree, that one was flirting with the line (and then some). 


#6 - Your comment ties into my concern of what can happen when the rough gets into the lost-ball length - it masks some of the strategy and options that were built in.  If the rough through the fairway and on the slopes were kept at 2-3 inches, you'd still have a hell of a penalty from the severe lies (ball well above your feet to a difficult green as it is), but at least you'd have the potential for a miracle recovery.  On the inside of the dogleg, the goats have made quite a bit of progress in making short balls find-able.  We found several drives in there last month, but none were able to hit the green from that lie or angle.

[Wade Whitehead]

#6 is the most difficult green on the course to read.

WW

[Jason Topp]

I remember 7 looking pretty straightforward but consistently beating people up in my groups.

[Kevin Lynch]

The 7th looks like a really neat benched green par three. Though it is very difficult to judge from photographs, I do wonder if the bunkers and particularly the front left add anything to the hole.

I am enjoying the tour very much. An interesting and well thought out golf course presented in a very clear and thought provoking way

Jon

To me, the front left bunker mainly provides a visual barrier to left pin positions (from the lower left teeing grounds).  Also, it may scare you away from the ideal line, which is always to the left, given the left-to-right slope of the green (and area left of the green).  If the pin is left and you aim a little right of the pin to avoid the bunker, you may face a fairly long second putt.  

Like Chris said, this hole often gets overlooked given the dramatic features of its surrounding holes, but it's a solid par three.  As with so many other holes, there are multiple 2nd shot options if you miss the green short (from Tommy's 4th picture).  Some use the slope of the green as a backstop and throw up a high pitch.  Others use the slope short of the green to play a bump & run, while others (myself included) like to use putter off the normally firm grounds.