BALLYHACK GC hole by hole (new ninth hole see reply 345)

[Matt MacIver]

Kevin - I'd say #2 is my favorite par 5, I'd likely never have the same second shot depending where my oft wayward drive ended up. But I'd always WANT to go for it, thinking not much penalty for a miss, and playing blind over (or laying up short) of the Spectical bunker is always a treat.

[Carl Rogers]

12 is an epic hole and an exceedingly difficult hole.  But it is a fair hole. Big hitter, big advantage ... a lot of roll out on the drive.  If I hit a reasonable drive (for me), the downhill approach shot from 180 or so is very very tough, but not impossible.  The pot bunker must be avoided in order to save yourself from an 'X'.  I have no idea how a 20 handicapper can play the hole with the difficult stances and that bunker. I do not remember ever playing to a front pin.

Like other holes at Ballyhack, the golfer has to take the hole on, there is no real safety play (holes 1,3,4,5 & approach shots on 9 & 11).  See hole 14 coming up.

[Scott Weersing]

I think the 12th hole is a great 4.5 par hole. A great drive and you can reach the green. A so so drive and then it becomes harder. There is not really a layup. If you lay up to the bottom of the hill, then it is a blind shot up the hill.

In the George Cup 2014, we had 210 yards into a two club wind with our best drive. I think we managed two bogeys in the group from there.
I hit a 3 wood out to the right and then was able to chip on. The best play is to land short of the green and then chip on. You have to avoid the pot bunker.

I like the tee shot and the view of the green from the fairway. The green is might be the flattest of the greens on the course. But it is 50 yards long or so.

[Chris DeNigris]

I have a love/hate relationship with 12- and for me this is the toughest 4 on the course. On a hole where the drive is so paramount in setting up a decent approach - to a tough green to hit from anywhere- it's an incredibly demanding tee shot for me. The fairway plays narrower than it really is and because of the fugly rough on the left side that Kevin mentioned (I seem to be there often)- and it leaves fewer reasonable 2nd shots than any other hole at BH. For me the ideal place to come in is the fairly narrow shelf just before the drop to the valley. The birdie that Tim mentioned a couple posts ago was only possible because he hit what I consider the perfect drive- finding a little flat section on the left-most part of the fairway shelf- leaving the best angle and an ideal 140 yards.  But that's a tough place to find- his ball split the center of the fairway off the tee and just barely avoided the rough on the left.  God forbid you try for the favored right side and overcook a fade and get hung up in the right hillside rough- hardly a prayer from there.  I never thought I would think this, much less write it- but I love that hemorrhoid at the green. While as Tommy says it doesn't often come into play- it's always forefront in your mind.
Love it sometimes, hate it more frequently.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Kevin, I don't think there is more fairway but the rough on the left is much more playable.  The line I usually pick off the tee is the cart path in the distance.  It leaves little room for error.  I find it interesting that some feel the fairway on four is tight. It have not brought up the tightness on twelve.  I find the tee shot on twelve much more difficult, that is why a lay back.

[Kevin Lynch]

Kevin - I'd say #2 is my favorite par 5, I'd likely never have the same second shot depending where my oft wayward drive ended up. But I'd always WANT to go for it, thinking not much penalty for a miss, and playing blind over (or laying up short) of the Spectical bunker is always a treat.

I probably should have made you pick among the other 3 to think a little.  The 2nd at Ballyhack may be one of the best Par 5s I've played anywhere, so the other three really don't stand a chance in comparison.

[Kevin Lynch]

12 is an epic hole and an exceedingly difficult hole.  But it is a fair hole. Big hitter, big advantage ... a lot of roll out on the drive.  If I hit a reasonable drive (for me), the downhill approach shot from 180 or so is very very tough, but not impossible.  The pot bunker must be avoided in order to save yourself from an 'X'.  I have no idea how a 20 handicapper can play the hole with the difficult stances and that bunker. I do not remember ever playing to a front pin.

I'd like to hear Matt's impressions on this hole to address Carl's question.  It seems like an 18 could find the fairway, and get somewhere short, left of the green.  Even if you miss the fairway, the big dip in the holee means you can always get recovery shots in range (easily under 100).  At that point, it all depends on your comfort level with an uphill pitch (or even a bump and run).

[Kevin Lynch]

Tim / Chris,

Given the wind conditions that Sunday morning, there's no diminishing either of your contributions to an alternate shot birdie.  That's one you can tell the grandkids about.  Even if the hole was playing straight downwind, that's impressive, yet alone into a 3 club wind.


Tommy,

I've never thought of this fairway as narrow, especially given the kickslope on the high right side (once you get past the 200 yard mark).  But, that may be a function of length, as the landing area opens up a bit more the further you go.

Or, as you mentioned, the effective width can change quite a bit because of the uneven lies.  For someone like you with a sweet, rhythmic swing, those lies can throw off your perfection.  For a person who moves his body far too much, I often hit more solid shots off awkward lies, simply because I'm forced to still my body more.  As a result, uneven lies don't set off my radar as much (unless I have a hybrid or 3 wood in hand).

The rough maintenance can affect this hole quite a bit.   As Chris mentioned, the left rough can be nasty, but that has varied significantly.  I found it to be very playable this last George Cup.  On the right side, the rough just past the bunkers can drastically change your fortunes.  In 2013, we had a well struck ball hit up in the right past the bunkers, but it stayed about 6 inches in the rough, leaving a 190 yard shot from a 20 degree downhill lie.  If the rough had been a quarter inch shorter, that ball would have tumbled into the fairway and rolled at least 20-30 yards closer.  If that same shot had been hit this year, it would have been in prime position. 

[Jim Sherma]

#12 is an epic hole. Thinning out the gunch on the right side makes the drive much more fun since you can challenge the right side to find the kick plate without risking a lost ball. The little pot short right of the green is my favorite bunker on the course . The shaping around the bunker and how it plays so much larger than it is. This is definitely a challenging hole if you get out of position and the pot really makes the hole for me special.

[Chris DeNigris]

#12 is an epic hole.     the pot really makes the hole for me special.

Jim- this stunning admission should require Tommy to re-evaluate his generous gesture. Might I suggest a blind drawing of all of the 4-time GC participants, excluding any former Cup champions.

[Ronald Montesano]

Why do you think the goats stick around?

#vapotforall

[Jim Sherma]

#12 is an epic hole.     the pot really makes the hole for me special.

Jim- this stunning admission should require Tommy to re-evaluate his generous gesture. Might I suggest a blind drawing of all of the 4-time GC participants, excluding any former Cup champions.

Talk about being taken out of context... Sheesh

[Wade Whitehead]

The 12/18 look at Ballyhack reminds me in some ways of the 2nd and 5th tees at Merion.  I recently asked Lester if he ever considered a shared teeing ground for the two holes.

Kevin, I don't think there is more fairway than before on the left side of twelve.  I wonder if your angle was different (though the teeing grounds aren't overly wide).

WW

[Kevin Lynch]

#12 is an epic hole.     the pot really makes the hole for me special.

Jim- this stunning admission should require Tommy to re-evaluate his generous gesture. Might I suggest a blind drawing of all of the 4-time GC participants, excluding any former Cup champions.

Maybe the pot on 12 helped Jim come up with the funniest joke prize, which put him in the Runner Up spot.

Chris - I see what you did there.  Neither of us are allowed to skip a George Cup so we can maintain our exalted Perfect Attendance status.

[Jamey Bryan]

Kevin,

Funny you should mention hitting twelve fairway from 18.......    I think it was the first or second George Cup I was playing with Aaron, and he did just that.  We got to his ball and he grinned and said "The sad part of this is I know exactly where to hit it.  Left corner of the roof of the second cabin."  Sure enough, he did so and hit the green!

Jamey

[Kevin Lynch]

Kevin,

Funny you should mention hitting twelve fairway from 18.......    I think it was the first or second George Cup I was playing with Aaron, and he did just that.  We got to his ball and he grinned and said "The sad part of this is I know exactly where to hit it.  Left corner of the roof of the second cabin."  Sure enough, he did so and hit the green!

Jamey

Jamey -

I know exactly when it was. It was the Shamble at the first George Cup.  I tried to convince my team (Wade, Andy Hughes, Chris DeNigris) that it was a better shot than the right rough (~190 out), but I was overruled.

When we got to the Clubhouse, we learned that Aaron's team tried the shot and Wade realized I wasn't completely insane. 

"Sure, when the Pro suggests it, it's a smart play, but when I think of it, I get a pat on the head."

[Tommy Williamsen]

Forgot to post a picture of the gathering pot bunker in the front right part of the green.
A gathering pot bunker on the front right of the green.



Even when the ball does not land in the bunker it affects the shot to the green when the pin is up front.

[Matt MacIver]

Kevin - I'd say #2 is my favorite par 5, I'd likely never have the same second shot depending where my oft wayward drive ended up. But I'd always WANT to go for it, thinking not much penalty for a miss, and playing blind over (or laying up short) of the Spectical bunker is always a treat.

I probably should have made you pick among the other 3 to think a little.  The 2nd at Ballyhack may be one of the best Par 5s I've played anywhere, so the other three really don't stand a chance in comparison.

Fair enough - I'd then go with 9, I like the drive and while the second doesn't have as much obvious interest I do like the green and the backstop if the pin is up.

10 didn't really resonate with me one way or the other.

[Wade Whitehead]

Gents:

Play 12 as a three-shot hole and you really can't make worse than 5.  A quarter of the time, you'll have a legitimate putt at four.

Play it as a two-shotter and anything can happen.

Love it.

WW

[Tommy Williamsen]

Wade, I think I have hit more bad second shots on 12 than any hole on the course.  You would think the hole sets up nice for little baby draw from up top. When the pin is back I feel confident, but when it is up front I have a lot of trouble.  I have to land the ball a little short of the green and let it release.  I try to get greedy and the ball can go anywhere. 

[Lester George]

My comments on 11.  First, if not for the 11th, 10 would have never been possible.  Whatever I had to do to get 10 built was worth starting the back nine on that landform.  In the twenty or so variations of plans I created, the 10th made the "cut" ever time!  I literally moved about two tablespoons of dirt to shape 10. 

The 11th was never drawn as a par 3.  Nor was it realistic to connect 11 and 17 greens (cart paths)  because once I started the cut for 11 green, I realized I was pushing my luck.  The green on 11 was my biggest concern because to get it the way I wanted it, I had to balance about a 20 foot cut.  Note the high ground to the right of the green.  I kept expecting to hit solid rock but never did.  As an alternate plan, I told Vinny Giles that I would continue to move dirt until I got what I wanted, but, if I hit solid rock and could not finish the green, I would build the green over the top of the right fairway bunker and we could play the hole as par three.

I thought it would work and it did.  I never considered number 11 as a "connector" hole, simply a good short par four.

Lester 

[Carl Rogers]

Gents:

Play 12 as a three-shot hole and you really can't make worse than 5.  A quarter of the time, you'll have a legitimate putt at four.

Play it as a two-shotter and anything can happen.

Love it.

WW

Wade, from my own experience and observing others, is that the third shot is very hard because there are relatively few shots like that golfers experience in what is their typical round of golf elsewhere.  Ballyhack, for me, has more a-typical, you can't practice them any where shots than any course I have ever played!!

[Wade Whitehead]

Carl:

You're right.  There are shots all over the property that a player just doesn't see other places.

Still, two smart shots can put anybody on the upslope leading the green.  A conservative play from there and two putts means you're walked to the thirteenth with a halve (or, a quarter of the time, a win).

WW

[Chris DeNigris]

Gents:

Play 12 as a three-shot hole and you really can't make worse than 5.  A quarter of the time, you'll have a legitimate putt at four.

Play it as a two-shotter and anything can happen.

Love it.

WW

Wade- true, but you can almost say this about any longish difficult par 4.  Two 7 irons and a wedge, 2 putts for bogey. Or hybrid, wedge wedge.  But who's really going to not hit driver on 12?  It's the bad places that many drives find there that dictates the big numbers. And that's due to a lack of effective width.  Good, bad or indifferent- that's the design characteristic and that defines the hole.

[Wade Whitehead]

Chris: For me, the design characteristic that defines #12 is that the player's eye (and, often, alignment (and, often, swing)) is drawn so far from the proper line by the exposure of the pinflag from the teebox.

This is a prevailing theme at Ballyhack that I was going to wait to discuss, but: Where else can you literally see the pin (from the tee) on almost every hole?  If the pin is left on eight, up on sixteen, and anywhere but hard right on eighteen, the player sees the pin on every hole before playing a shot.  Eventually (and often on the twelfth tee), this wears the player down.

The visuals (and purely the visuals) on twelve cause some players to hit the ball sixty yards left of the proper line and some to hit is 60 yards right.  It's downright wild.

WW