Capilano Routing by RTJ or Thompson?

[Tyler Kearns]

The early timeline according to Hathstauwk;

A.J. Taylor met Stanley Thompson and hired him to design Capilano in the summer of 1931.

A.J. Taylor met Stanley Thompson at the Waldorf Astoria Hotel in July 1932 to inspect preliminary drawing derived from a topographic map of the site. 

Thompson visited the site between this meeting and the spring of 1933 when clearing began based on Thompson's golf course plans.

TK

[Ian Andrew]

A.J. Taylor met Stanley Thompson and hired him to design Capilano in the summer of 1931.

A.J. Taylor met Stanley Thompson at the Waldorf Astoria Hotel in July 1932 to inspect preliminary drawing derived from a topographic map of the site. 

Thompson visited the site between this meeting and the spring of 1933 when clearing began based on Thompson's golf course plans.

Thanks Tyler,

That was one of the references I was looking for ...
There are some more letters, but that's a helpful step to understanding the initial timeline.

[Robert Thompson]

I'd add that in my discussions with Geoff Cornish, and in Doug Carrick's conversations with Robbie Robinson (both of whom were Thompson associates) it was clear Thompson never allowed them to route his courses. They supervised construction, but didn't do the routing, which was left to Thompson himself.

It would seem odd to me that he'd let Jones do the routing, especially since it also comes at a time when Thompson wasn't especially busy with other course work.

[Steve Okula]

Is there any record of how they overcame the lack of topsoil? Hauling enough soil up the mountain to cap the whole course would be a daunting proposition.

[Ian Andrew]

I remember talking to Geoff about his relationship with Stanley and that of the other associates. He told a few funny stories, but as he said he wasn't really a designer at that point. The one that stuck me involved the 3rd green at Highlands Links. Robbie had recommended to Stan that raise the green because it flooded regularly. Stan had responded that Robbie "stop thinking about design and get back to building what he was told to build."


From the Nashwaak Interview:

Ken Donovan: Did you ever feel hurt?

Geoff: Oh heavens! I would say all the time! Even Robbie Robinson - who was the most conscientious person in the world - was hurt. And Ken Gullan often said "Boy Stan knows how to hurt your feelings." Stan would be abrupt and, of course, he would make some sort of statement like, "I'm not going to hire any more imbeciles."



Thompson was a man who built more than 40 courses before he worked on Jasper (1925). He ran a massive construction company (Trans Canada) that built most all of his work. He was a man who was used to getting his way, not only with his design work, but also with the people who he built the courses for. He had the ability to convince a Prime Minister to create courses in Parks to get people back to work. Railroad barons to spend well beyond their budget.


With all of this in mind ... why on earth would he turn over the routing of one of his best projects - during a period where he wasn't as busy - for an extremely wealthy client - to someone two years out of University. A person whom he was hired to oversee at Midvale because of Trent's inexperience.


I'm not out to protect his legacy, because I'd rather have the facts prove the truth, than an outcome I might emotionally prefer.
But since Trent remains the sole source of this "possibility" - I don't think there is enough fact to substantiate the claim in the article


And I'm still looking for a "published" description or photo of the Cauldron prior to 1932.

[Ian Andrew]

Is there any record of how they overcame the lack of topsoil? Hauling enough soil up the mountain to cap the whole course would be a daunting proposition.

I don't have the book to refer to.

I do know that Banff was capped using river sand taken from the Bow River at a pit South of Canmore. It was transported up to Banff by train and unloaded onto the construction site. It was a different time.

This was the same project where they built the Lions Gate Suspension Bridge!
The Guinness family financed the 6,000 acre housing project.

[Jeff_Mingay]

This is very inconsistent ...

“I routed the holes for Thompson at Capilano,” Jones would assert many years later in his 1988 autobiographical book, Golf’s Magnificent Challenge.

I have the book, it says on page 80,

"We soon turned north to Canada, where there was still some money with which to build courses. I routed the holes for Thompson at Capilano, worked on some short courses in Ontario and Quebec and helped him with the course in Banff, where they were having trouble with winterkill on the greens.

Interestingly, earlier on it reads on page 77,

"Thompson's modus operandi was in keeping with his personality He would walk a property to get a feel for it, never taking a note,then sit back with a bottle of scotch and a good cigar and design the course. And they were always good. Jasper Park and Banff Springs in Alberta, Capilano in Vancouver, Cape Breton Highlands in Nova Scotia - all we're wonderful beautiful layouts."

And, like Rob and Ian say, I can't see a man of Thompson's personality turning this routing - of a very important commission, on a very dramatic site, in a major (and beautiful) city, for a very important and wealthy client - over to young Robert Trent Jones.

It doesn't make sense ... Jones may have suggested some holes, sure. But the final layout has to be Thompson's.

[Tyler Kearns]

A.J. Taylor met Stanley Thompson and hired him to design Capilano in the summer of 1931.

A.J. Taylor met Stanley Thompson at the Waldorf Astoria Hotel in July 1932 to inspect preliminary drawing derived from a topographic map of the site. 

Thompson visited the site between this meeting and the spring of 1933 when clearing began based on Thompson's golf course plans.

Thanks Tyler,

That was one of the references I was looking for ...
There are some more letters, but that's a helpful step to understanding the initial timeline.

Ian,

Based on letters published in Hathstauwk, Thompson visited the site in January 1936, sending along a long list of finishing notes to construction foreman on train home in early February.

It is worth noting that British Pacific Properties supervisor for the Capilano development, John Anderson was constantly questioning Thompson need to visit the site in an effort to keep costs at a minimum.  Thompson ignored Anderson's advice to stay away, but I wonder if it may have resulted in fewer site visits than typical.  Thompson writes Anderson on March 9, 1936, "My January trip, despite your asking me to delay it, was entirely justified, and I might say the savings commission earned for you were in excess of the fee charged.  Every time, it seems, that I wish to come to Vancouver I have to sell the idea, and yet after each and every trip you seem glad I came, my work justifying the visit" (Hathstauwk, pg. 41).  Thompson continues, "Self-appraised sufficiency is a trait which I have observed often among professional men in British Columbia; this may or may not account for the many poor golf courses found in your area" (Hathstauwk, pg. 41).Thompson stated he plans to be on site at the end of March for 3-4 weeks during seeding time, supervising finishing details.

Thompson sent a letter to John Anderson on August 17th, 1936 to state the course was ready for play after his most recent site visit.  It is not clear whether this is a follow-up to the March/April visit, or a third site visit in 1936 (I assume the latter).

In 1979, the club lost much of the early correspondence from Thompson, Jones & Co. in a fire at the maintenance building near the 12th hole, so there is a definite gap in the Thompson timeline at Capilano.

TK

[Tyler Kearns]

Here are a few photos of the plans hanging in the clubhouse at Capilano;


An early plan for the course, which changed significantly after Thompson & Co. inspected the site.


Zooming in on the text from my computer, this plan is titled Rough Study for Golf Course A, and dated March 1932, produced by a company in Brookline, Massachusetts.

In regards to Jones' involvement at Capilano, from Hansen's book (pg. 84) "For the project Jones also interacted with James F. Dawson of Olmsted Brothers of Brookline, Massachusetts, which had been hired to work with Thompson on the overall landscaping plan for British Properties".

The above plan must be what is referred to in Eric Whitehead's "Hathstauwk" (pg. 24) when referring to a July 1932 meeting at the Waldorf Astoria in NYC between Stanley Thompson & A.J. Taylor, "This 1932 meeting at the Waldorf, which was eventually adjourned to an informal cocktail session down in the hotel's famous Peacock Alley, was merely in the nature of an early report on preliminary drawings created from a topography map".

Did Jones work with Dawson to produce a March 1932 preliminary routing for Capilano?  Regardless, what is shown on the preliminary plan dated March 1932 is not representative of what was built.

TK

[Ian Andrew]

I was surprised this didn't have more discussion in the end.


I will pose the questions that this raised for me:

1. Is it the author's responsibility to share all the details to make a case for such a change or accreditation?
I'm struggling with the lack of detail given - is it detailed in his book?

2. If this is actually a single source - being that Jim Barclay cites the same source (Jones's comments from his own book) - is that good enough to change the accreditation from the claim of the club?

[Robert Thompson]

1) Looks like a single source with little support.
2) Not good enough and wouldn't be good enough for a historian.

[BCrosby]

Ian -

There isn't much discussion here because the weight of the evidence all tilts in the same direction. The only reasonable conclusion (absent new facts) is that Thompson did the routing.

Bob 

[Bill_McBride]

When you have played both Capilano and Highland Links, and read carefully what RTJ himself wrote, it's pretty apparent  Thompson routed Capilano.  Not sure why Mr. Hansen is pushing the revisionist theory.  As I've said earlier, Capilano and Highland Links might be the two best routings I've ever seen. 

[Bob Jenkins]

Ian,

I have just pulled out my copy of Hathstauwk and agree completely. Those letters between Thompson and the club make it clear that Thompson did complete the routing.

Bob J

[Ian Andrew]

Does not answer "the question" - but this is a must see movie of Capilano

some clearing images
clubhouse construction
aerial views of the course - wait till you see the bunkers!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnG63UpjZ4U

[Bill_McBride]

Does not answer "the question" - but this is a must see movie of Capilano

some clearing images
clubhouse construction
aerial views of the course - wait till you see the bunkers!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnG63UpjZ4U

Wow, "must see" is really true!

I loved the fact that you never (that I can recall) could see the housing around the course.   

The members were not good putters!

The bunkers were magnificent.  They may have become less awesome over the years.   The views are incredible down over the city and harbor.  I'd love to get back!

[Bob Jenkins]

Ian,

That video is amazing! Thank you so much for bringing it to our attention. I agree with Bill regarding the bunkers which look a lot different now.

Thanks again.

Bob

[Sven Nilsen]

Although the following article doesn't get into specifics of who did what at Capilano, it does offer some insight into the differences and similarities of the work produced by Thompson and Jones.

Ottawa Citizen - Jan. 7, 1953