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Bob Jenkins

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Capilano Routing by RTJ or Thompson?
« on: November 03, 2014, 04:05:50 PM »

The link below from the current Golf Course Architecture magazine credits the incredible routing to Robert Trent Jones, who at the time was a junior partner with Stanley Thompson. This is news to me although I had been aware that Thompson and Jones worked together for a period of time.

No matter who did the actual routing, it is magical and the article does credit to the course. The amazing aspect of the routing is how the course tumbles down the mountainside for 6 holes with views of Vancouver harbor on several holes. Also as the article points out, it is only on the par 3 ninth that one gets the impression of climbing back uphill. In spite of the elevation changes, the course is very walkable.

If you ever get a chance to play Capilano, it is well worth the opportunity.

http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/Who-routed-the-course-at-Capilano-Thompson-or-Jones/3272/Default.aspx#.VFfsUfnF98F


Bill_McBride

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Re: Capilano Routing by RTJ or Thompson?
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2014, 05:19:11 PM »
Agreed, best routing ever.

Lou_Duran

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Re: Capilano Routing by RTJ or Thompson?
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2014, 05:42:41 PM »
What makes the routing so extraordinary?

Bill_McBride

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Re: Capilano Routing by RTJ or Thompson?
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2014, 05:45:20 PM »
After playing Highland Links on Cape Breton Island, I'm inclined to think Thompson must have been intimately involved in the Capilano routing as Highland Links is the second best routing I've ever seen!     I've never seen anything from RTJ that creative.  

Bill_McBride

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Re: Capilano Routing by RTJ or Thompson?
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2014, 05:49:57 PM »
What makes the routing so extraordinary?

Bob nails it above.   You drop about 200', maybe more, during the first six holes, then serpentine your way back up those 200' in five holes without really breaking a sweat. 

In addition,  the four holes behind the clubhouse, two stout par 4s at 15 and 17, a long par 3 16, and a very solid three shot 18th, are good holes.  Both 15 and 17 play away from the clubhouse and their fairways frame majestic peaks in the distance.   

It's a great walk and very fun course. 

Ian Andrew

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Re: Capilano Routing by RTJ or Thompson?
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2014, 06:08:26 PM »
You drop about 200', maybe more, during the first six holes

Actually its 420' - the site was surveyed in advance for Doug's work
I routed Capilano assisted Doug with work at Capilano when I was with CDI
It's where I got credit for routing the course chickenpox in my 30's

I have lots to share when I finally get home.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2014, 06:11:27 PM by Ian Andrew »
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Bill_McBride

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Re: Capilano Routing by RTJ or Thompson?
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2014, 07:41:43 PM »
420'?   Wow, and with really spectacular views of Vancouver Harbor!   Ian, do you agree those are the two best routings ever, Capilano and Highland Links?   I can't think of two better given what they had to overcome and achieve. 

Tyler Kearns

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Re: Capilano Routing by RTJ or Thompson?
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2014, 08:00:33 PM »
You drop about 200', maybe more, during the first six holes

Actually its 420' - the site was surveyed in advance for Doug's work
I routed Capilano assisted Doug with work at Capilano when I was with CDI
It's where I got credit for routing the course chickenpox in my 30's

I have lots to share when I finally get home.

Ian,

Are you sure it's 420 feet?  I am looking at Eric Whitehead's Capilano history book "Hathstauwk" and it details the elevation changes of each hole.  No. 1 tee is the highest point on the front nine at 672 feet, and No. 7 tee is the lowest at 375 feet.  I'm not sure how accurate Google Earth is when it comes to elevation, but it shows a drop of 91 metres (299 feet) between the above mentioned points.

Regardless, it is a wonderful routing, and a fairly easy walk considering the elevation changes throughout the golf course.

TK
« Last Edit: November 03, 2014, 08:08:01 PM by Tyler Kearns »

Bill_McBride

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Re: Capilano Routing by RTJ or Thompson?
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2014, 08:22:14 PM »
It must be a relatively easy walk because a fat azz like me managed it without hyperventilating.    ;D

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Capilano Routing by RTJ or Thompson?
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2014, 08:36:39 PM »
This is an interesting one, particularly for "us Canadians" ...

I think James Hansen's book on RTJ is arguably the best of the golf architect biography's out there. It's a great read, very well researched and put together; like Mr. Hansen's other award-winning books. Granted, I haven't seen all of the info. available re Capilano, but the only evidence that RTJ routed the course seems to be RTJ's own words on the matter. He's never been credited with the routing by the original developer or the club over the years; or Stanley Thompson, I don't think? Which doesn't mean he didn't route the course. But this said, in his book, Mr. Hansen claims that over many years RTJ stretched the truth on many occasions for the purpose of self-promotion. Fine.

The one fact that makes me doubt RTJ routed Capilano most is that the brilliance of Stanley Thompson's best courses - most notably Jasper, Banff, St. George's, Westmount, Cape Breton Highlands Links ... but also many more - stem from really smart routings. Capilano ranks as one of the smartest routings ever. A really, really good course doesn't necessarily belong on that steep property. But there's one there.
jeffmingay.com

Tom_Doak

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Re: Capilano Routing by RTJ or Thompson?
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2014, 06:09:13 AM »
Guess I will change the wording of my Capilano review for Volume 3.

However, there must be lots of great courses where an associate, rather than the "name" designer, did all (or the best part) of the routing.  Why re-write history here, if we are not being consistent across the board?

[The answer is, we only re-write history here in hindsight, because it was Mr. Jones and not Geoff Cornish or Bob Moote.  Which is sad.]

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Capilano Routing by RTJ or Thompson?
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2014, 06:42:57 AM »
Guess I will change the wording of my Capilano review for Volume 3.

However, there must be lots of great courses where an associate, rather than the "name" designer, did all (or the best part) of the routing.  Why re-write history here, if we are not being consistent across the board?

[The answer is, we only re-write history here in hindsight, because it was Mr. Jones and not Geoff Cornish or Bob Moote.  Which is sad.]

My immediate thought when I opened this thread.

I can think of countless modern courses that were routed by the associate rather than the named designer. In fact - like many building architectural firms - often the lead man during the busy years was in essence a sales front and did little actual design work other than checking and blessing.

It is only if these associates go on to make a highly successful career as a lead themselves that they may start to get partially recognised with the designs under their former employer's name.

Sean_A

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Re: Capilano Routing by RTJ or Thompson?
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2014, 09:53:50 AM »
It is only if these associates go on to make a highly successful career as a lead themselves that they may start to get partially recognised with the designs under their former employer's name.

Harsh, but fair, and more importantly, realistic.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Lou_Duran

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Re: Capilano Routing by RTJ or Thompson?
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2014, 10:24:58 AM »
It is only if these associates go on to make a highly successful career as a lead themselves that they may start to get partially recognised with the designs under their former employer's name.

Harsh, but fair, and more importantly, realistic.

Ciao

And commonplace in all industries and government.  Particularly when I was a young man, the immediate fruits of my successes were enjoyed disproportionally by my superiors.  Fortunately, I had some good bosses who also shared similarly the downsides of my screw-ups.  When we hear how untidy a routing of a Nicklaus course is do we attribute it to Harvey Schwartz, Jr. Associate?  And when the business is slow and there is not enough money in the checkbook to meet payroll, who puts his signature on a working capital loan?  Certainly not young Mr. Schwartz.  The "Name" is ultimately responsible for the project, even if it was a bulldozer operator who made awkward office-drawn plans work in the field (and vice-versa).

Ian Andrew

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Re: Capilano Routing by RTJ or Thompson?
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2014, 11:39:21 AM »

But Thompson wanted Jones to see his mountain gems and sent Robert on the long rail trip into the Rockies in the summer of 1932. At Banff, Jones sketched a number of drawings showing details of the course, including one in which he laid out a possible redesign of the famous 192-yard par three fourth hole, nicknamed the ‘Devil’s Cauldron’, which he felt could be “greatly improved by the addition of shallow traps on the right and left walls of the green slopes,” traps with “sand flashing” at “large scale” to “harmonise with the mass of the surrounding mountains.”

This is an interesting image:



With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Ian Andrew

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Re: Capilano Routing by RTJ or Thompson?
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2014, 12:00:58 PM »
“I routed the holes for Thompson at Capilano,” Jones would assert many years later in his 1988 autobiographical book, Golf’s Magnificent Challenge. Not just that, as 80-year-old records now preserved in the Robert Trent Jones Sr Collection at Cornell University Archives show, Trent Jones also produced sketches for some of Capilano’s green complexes.

Are they dated?
What about the fact that they used models for the greens?


From The Nashwaak Review

Interview of Geoff Cornish by Ken Donovan

Ken: Could you explain more about what you mean, when Stan trained you?

Geoff: "Yes, and his mode of operations. You know here in Cape Breton, Stan only did models of one or two greens, like I showed you last night. He did some courses, such as Capilano - where he did all eighteen."


Geoff was hired in 1935 to help address the fact that Capilano had no topsoil for the build.


The source of Jim Barclay's comment was also "Golf’s Magnificent Challenge"
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Ian Andrew

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Re: Capilano Routing by RTJ or Thompson?
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2014, 12:33:41 PM »
“I routed the holes for Thompson at Capilano,” Jones would assert many years later in his 1988 autobiographical book, Golf’s Magnificent Challenge.

I have the book, it says on page 80,

"We soon turned north to Canada, where there was still some money with which to build courses. I routed the holes for Thompson at Capilano, worked on some short courses in Ontario and Quebec and helped him with the course in Banff, where they were having trouble with winterkill on the greens.

Interestingly, earlier on it reads on page 77,

"Thompson's modus operandi was in keeping with his personality He would walk a property to get a feel for it, never taking a note,then sit back with a bottle of scotch and a good cigar and design the course. And they were always good. Jasper Park and Banff Springs in Alberta, Capilano in Vancouver, Cape Breton Highlands in Nova Scotia - all we're wonderful beautiful layouts."


With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Ian Andrew

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Re: Capilano Routing by RTJ or Thompson?
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2014, 01:11:56 PM »
I can't find my copy of Hathstauwk. The Story of Capilano Golf and Country Club. Does anyone else have one to refer to?
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Ian Andrew

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Re: Capilano Routing by RTJ or Thompson?
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2014, 01:24:07 PM »
Some interesting notes about the Construction of Capilano

Stanley Thompson sent a January 2nd, 1936 telegraph to John Anderson discussing his visit to Capilano, “Expect arrive Vancouver fifteenth instant spending several weeks west coast stop. ………” He obviously spent three weeks working on the construction and seeding of the course. I think each trip was likely of this duration due to the travel time and the limited number of visits he made.

His fees were $732 per visit “including all traveling expenses.” Each visit require four nights on a train in either direction. So three weeks actually meant 12-13 days on site. An interesting note was from those fees had commissions he received from the purchase of goods for the course (like grass seed) deducted from the total. He was not handsomely paid for Capilano and in fact had to send a letter in September 24th, 1938 still trying to collect $253.75 for the last payment.

In a letter on March 9th 1936 he states, “….I am coming to Vancouver in the end of March and I will spend three or four weeks during seeding time to supervising same and flashing the bunkers and greens. This will put the course beyond the tampering stage as regards to the architecture." Again it is clear that Thompson has from 12 to 18 days on site on this visit.


This is supposed to be the 6th hole during construction, but it's really the 15th green.


The tee shot on the 15th


We know Stanley Thompson went to West Vancouver in the spring of 1933 to inspect the site “and had his course design on paper.” Clearing began immediately under the direction of Stan Conway (they first cleared centerlines and worked out), so we can assume this trip began construction. When we look at the pay days we discover there is no record of him being paid in 1933, but he was paid in April 20th 1932. I personally think this is an error in the book Hathstauwk since he first met Taylor at the Waldorf Astoria in July of 1932. The pay date should read April 20th, 1933. This was obviously the visit to the site that produced the routing of the course. He submitted construction plans in June of 1933 (this did include irrigation drawings - clearly referred to in another letter).

Using the notes for pay, his next visit came on October 24th 1934. The clearing at Capilano was absolutely brutal and I would bet that little actual course construction began until 1936. (note: Cornish hired in 1935 to help address the lack of soil) The site had to be cleared of massive trees (some of the stumps can still be seen and are 6-8 feet across. The site was also full of rock outcrops and strewn with boulders too. Just cleaning up after clearing must have been the bulk of the work judging by the photos.

His next visit was November 9th, 1935, followed quickly by a visit on January 31st, 1936. He was fully the golf course construction and was supervising the green contours and bunker shaping on these trips. He wrote 12 pages of Finishing Notes on February 4th, 1936 that outlined all the work he wanted completed on each hole to finish the golf course. Much to my chagrin, he included a great deal of suggestion on planting and even produced an extensive planting plan for the course. Play began in the late summer of 1936.

Near as I can tell Stanley only visited the site 4 times, once to route the course, once to supervise clearing and twice during the golf course construction. He spent about two weeks on average on the property for an estimated total of 60 days.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2014, 04:49:52 PM by Ian Andrew »
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

BCrosby

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Re: Capilano Routing by RTJ or Thompson?
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2014, 03:03:41 PM »
Thanks Ian.  Seems to me the Capilano routing question can be put to rest.

The construction pictures are impressive. It couldn't have been cheap or easy to remove all the rock and huge trees.  Then to discover that there wasn't enough soil to grow grass ....

Bob


Bob Jenkins

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Re: Capilano Routing by RTJ or Thompson?
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2014, 04:15:37 PM »
Ian,

I have a copy of Hathstauwk but as we are moving this weekend, it is in one of many boxes. Will try to dig it out early next week.

Bob

Bill_McBride

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Re: Capilano Routing by RTJ or Thompson?
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2014, 04:37:06 PM »
Ian, I'm confused. In your post #18, near the bottom, you say Stanley only visited four times but above that you seem to list more.  Were those by Jones or am I just misinterpreting.

That's definitely the 15th green with that mountain peak looming above!

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Capilano Routing by RTJ or Thompson?
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2014, 04:38:01 PM »
Ian, I'm confused. In your post #18, near the bottom, you say Stanley only visited four times but above that you seem to list more.  Were those by Jones or am I just misinterpreting.

That's definitely the 15th green with that mountain peak looming above!

I'm also a bit confused. If Stanley wasn't there until 1933 and RTJ was on site in 1932 doesn't that make it more likely that the latter did the routing?
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Ian Andrew

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Re: Capilano Routing by RTJ or Thompson?
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2014, 04:48:03 PM »
I'm also a bit confused. If Stanley wasn't there until 1933 and RTJ was on site in 1932 doesn't that make it more likely that the latter did the routing?

He was there in February of 1932 to meet about the project.
I've just confirmed that with a Canadian Golfer entry.

With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Ian Andrew

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Re: Capilano Routing by RTJ or Thompson?
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2014, 04:49:28 PM »
Ian, I'm confused. In your post #18, near the bottom, you say Stanley only visited four times but above that you seem to list more.  Were those by Jones or am I just misinterpreting.

Bill,

That was during construction

All that material was from something I wrote about time spent on site.
I don't have my copy of the book = its among the many borrowed and now missing...
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....