[Ken Fry]

I'm kicking a hornets nest but this is something I've contemplated for years:  what's the historical perspective on A.W. Tillinghast as a person?

Many years ago I joined the Tillinghast Society and received the 3 books containing his essays, articles and recollections.  While educational, I kept getting the impression that this guy was really full of himself.  I was waiting for him to announce he was the one who got tired of watching people pull bread apart so he suggested cutting entire loafs in equal pieces!  On the positive side, not many architects wrote as prolifically as Tillinghast.

Many here have their opinions of the ODGs and their place in architecture history.  Tillinghast's design career is well documented and well deserved, most recently with entry into The World Golf Hall of Fame.  What kind of guy was he?  Are my impressions of his personality far off?

Ken

[David_Tepper]

Ken F. -

I can't remember who said it, but one saying I like is "never confuse the artist with the art."

I am guessing Picasso, Frank LLoyd Wright and Miles Davis fell into the pompous ass category are fair amount of the time. Does it really matter? Does it make their art any less valid?

DT 

[John McCarthy]

Ken:  One supposes it takes a certain ego to demand a large budget,  a large fee and hundreds of acres of ground to build a playing field.  No matter how modest you present yourself, immense self confidence is a must.

A gca who is humble reminds me of Steve Albini, who humbly presents himself as a sound engineer rather than a record producer.  Yet, somehow, all his bands records sound like Steve Albini records. 

[John_Cullum]

He wrote nice thank you notes.

[Ken Fry]

Does it really matter? Does it make their art any less valid?

DT 

My answer would be "no" which is why I'm separating his deserved credit for the body of work he created with the man he was/may have been.  Tillinghast was also involved in much more of early American golf than designing courses.  He ran in an influential crowd and has been given credit for, among other things, coining the term "birdie," or so he claims.

When I envision him and his friends talking after golf I picture a room full of social elitist sipping single malt and expounding on their intellectual superiority over others.  Is this off base or is this who Tillinghast was?

Ken

[Jeff_Brauer]

Not sure, of course, since I never met the man.  We can only go on what we read about him.  As to his writings, could it be that the stilted language of the era (by our modern USA Today standards) puts you off a bit?  Or is it the content?

As to what others wrote, I can't recall it all right now, but do seem to recall that he had a drinking and temper problem at some point, was the son of a rich guy, but later, took his bankruptcy and subsequent assignment for the PGA of America with pretty good humor, all things considered.  He did have the nickname at one point of Tillie the Terror, no?

I haven't read Phil's book in a few years, nor the Hannigan piece, so I may be remembering this all wrong pre morning coffee.  Since actions speak louder than words, do the historians here have any other deeds they recall that might paint a better personal picture of Tilly?

[RJ_Daley]

Does anyone on the inside of the Tillinghast Society have any thoughts or information of any contemplated comments about any potential official statement regarding revelations about our recent scandal of using Tillie's name and social association along with questionable artifacts or documents to perpetrate possible fraud?  Could it be that as Jeff notes that Tillie's stilted style or use of the vernacular of the era in his writings imparts an unintended interpretation of pretense or pomposity that moreso is part of the interpreter than the nature of the person being interpreted?

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'm kicking a hornets nest but this is something I've contemplated for years:  what's the historical perspective on A.W. Tillinghast as a person?

Many years ago I joined the Tillinghast Society and received the 3 books containing his essays, articles and recollections.  While educational, I kept getting the impression that this guy was really full of himself.  I was waiting for him to announce he was the one who got tired of watching people pull bread apart so he suggested cutting entire loafs in equal pieces!  On the positive side, not many architects wrote as prolifically as Tillinghast.

Many here have their opinions of the ODGs and their place in architecture history.  Tillinghast's design career is well documented and well deserved, most recently with entry into The World Golf Hall of Fame.  What kind of guy was he?  Are my impressions of his personality far off?


Ken,

When you consider the quality and enduring values of his body of work, was he not entitled to hold himself in high esteem ?

[RJ_Daley]

Pat, perhaps it is a cultural thing, but there are many cultures and traditions that do not believe that pomposity is an entitled trait, merely due to success or achievement  Humility goes a long way in some corners of ociety as well....

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, perhaps it is a cultural thing, but there are many cultures and traditions that do not believe that pomposity is an entitled trait, merely due to success or achievement  Humility goes a long way in some corners of ociety as well....

RJ,

You're condemning the man without ever having known him.

What do they consider that in some corners of society ?

[RJ_Daley]

Pat, your reading comprehension seems a bit off today...   

I condemned no one.  I made an observation about the use of the word entitlement and context of humility vs pomposity in some cultures.  The other post asks a few questions about Tillie Society's possible views on the current matter, and observes the stilted writing style differences in context with our norms, and the effect on our interpretation of Tille based on the interpreter's tendencies. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, your reading comprehension seems a bit off today...   


JUST TODAY ? 

I condemned no one.  I made an observation about the use of the word entitlement and context of humility vs pomposity in some cultures.  The other post asks a few questions about Tillie Society's possible views on the current matter, and observes the stilted writing style differences in context with our norms, and the effect on our interpretation of Tille based on the interpreter's tendencies. 

Holding oneself in high esteem differs from being a "pompous ass", wouldn't you agree ?

[Greg Tallman]

Pat, your reading comprehension seems a bit off today...   


JUST TODAY ? 

I condemned no one.  I made an observation about the use of the word entitlement and context of humility vs pomposity in some cultures.  The other post asks a few questions about Tillie Society's possible views on the current matter, and observes the stilted writing style differences in context with our norms, and the effect on our interpretation of Tille based on the interpreter's tendencies. 

Holding oneself in high esteem differs from being a "pompous ass", wouldn't you agree ?

LOL, For every man who "holds himself in high esteem" there are thousands who think he is a pompous ass. Impossible question to definitively answer. Are the thousands correct? envious? incapable of understanding? sheep?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Greg,

Fair point.

No one likes to kick a man when he's down, but, as men ascend the ladder, their ass tends to become fair game.

AWT's body of work is incredible in terms of quality.

[Ken Fry]

When you consider the quality and enduring values of his body of work, was he not entitled to hold himself in high esteem ?

Pat,

I'd only counter that will Bill Coore as an excellent example.  His work certainly has others holding him in high esteem yet Bill doesn't present himself in such a way.

Ken

[SWolffe]

Link to Hannigan article:

http://tillinghast.net/Tillinghast/WELCOME_files/HANNIGAN%20ARTICLE_1.pdf

[Stu Wolffe]

Did he have an ego...what great creator did not.  was he an ass...in all the research I have seen and done - I believe no. 

I am having trouble linking a letter from the Ross Family from AWT to Donald Ross. 

Brad Klein printed it in his Discovering Donald Ross. 

In it is a small reflection and a glimpse of the type of man AWT was.

[Patrick_Mucci]

When you consider the quality and enduring values of his body of work, was he not entitled to hold himself in high esteem ?

Pat,

I'd only counter that will Bill Coore as an excellent example.  His work certainly has others holding him in high esteem yet Bill doesn't present himself in such a way.

Ken,

Bill's certainly a real gentleman, and about as low key as you can get.

But, AWT was a solo designer and the quality and quantity of his body of work is most impressive.

Ken

[Tom_Doak]

Ken:

Why would you try to judge the character of a person you'd never met, who died fifty years ago?  What's the point? 

It's not like you have to judge whether to do business with him or not ... and letting your unfounded opinion of his character influence your opinion of his body of work is completely ass-backwards.

[Ken Fry]

Ken:

Why would you try to judge the character of a person you'd never met, who died fifty years ago?  What's the point? 

It's not like you have to judge whether to do business with him or not ... and letting your unfounded opinion of his character influence your opinion of his body of work is completely ass-backwards.

Tom,

No point to be made.  Call it simple curiosity.  Inquiring like this will not change my opinion of Tillinghast the designer or the courses of his I've played.  Ironically, I grew up playing a Tillinghast course in Pittsfield, MA, the same course GCA member Steve Curry worked at a few years ago.

It's like art or music to me.  I can enjoy the product immensely without enjoying the artist.

Tillinghast also ran with a crowd of early influencers of American golf.  From a historical perspective, I want to explore how others feel he fit in with this crowd and the impact he made off the golf course.

Thanks Stu Wolffe for posting the Hannigan Article and for the original 3 books on AWT that sparked my curiosity back in 2002.

Ken

[Jeff_Brauer]

Stu,
Thanks for the classic Hannigan article. I enjoyed it again.

The letter you refer to is the one that sent me to find Tillie's Toledo house on 2444 Putnam St.  It seems like I recall reading of a Tillie/Ross meeting, referenced in that letter, where Ross would be described as the prickly one, while Tillie was trying to be very gracious.

[Mark McKeever]

He was a member at Cricket....he had to be a great guy!   

Mark

[Bob_Huntley]

There is nothing quite like the man who is honest about himself..

"Early in life I had to choose between honest arrogance and hypocritical humility. I chose honest arrogance and have seen no occasion to change".

Frank Lloyd Wright.

[Peter Pallotta]

This will fall of deaf ears, but my 'ask': please let's limit the number of times we ascribe, to asses and gentlemen both, the qualities of greatness, and let's please keep our labelling of these asses/gentlemen with such high-sounding titles as "creators" to a minimum. 

All this talk about "great" musicians or artists or architects or designers or writers being absolved of their less than stellar qualities drives me crazy, not because we are absolving them of any such foibles but because so very few of them are/were indeed "great" (in any meaningful sense of the word), and even fewer of them were "creators" (of anything even remotely new/original).

Mr. Tillinghast was probably just a guy, no better or worse than most, and his golf courses were just golf courses - some better than others (though not by much).

As we've seen just recently around here, not every person or every course or every drawing can or should be elevated to some critical role in some grand narrative (one that is invariably and by definition of our own makings/imaginations) that ties together the past and the future into one great big ball of 'meaning'. 

You know, I think I'm starting to love ratings/rankings. There's something appealingly modest in this idiot obsession of ours:  "That course is a 5! No way - it's a 6 at least, and maybe even a 7!!!". Nice and simple - no narrative, no grand meanings...just numbers.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pete,

While not related to this thread (as if my offshoot into the sites' popularity) I have always found that an interesting subject.


First, yes, architecture like most other endeavors is 90% sweat and 10% genius, but the top dogs always have marketed themselves as near God like.  I took the Oak Park Frank Lloyd Wright studio tour earlier this year and the tour guide was nearly breathless that FLW's inspiration for his style was his German made building blocks he had as a kid.  In reality, it sounded like about the least creative thing you could possibly base your design on, but this guy was really selling it as creative genius.....

I also wonder about the varying personalities of the greats in any field, and wonder if there is any real correlation between a certain stereotypical personality type and talent for a certain field.  I do know there are tests that sort of ascribe personality traits, and I am on the "designer" spectrum of those.  Just not as temperamental (dammit) as the stereotype.

In pro golf you have greats with personalities ranging from the sullen Hogan to the affable Lee Trevino.  The stereotype would lean to the more serious types, I imagine, and Lee does have his serious side, but....

So, in the end, almost any personality type can be a great golf course architect. If there is a weakness in one area, they simply have to be smart enough to surround themselves with complimentary talent.

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