Do we laud Donald Ross...

[Chris DeToro]

more for how he constructed a world class golf course on a tiny piece of land in Wannamoisett or the quality and difficulty of the holes within? 

Often I think it's for both, however, the difficulty of the golf course, especially the outward 9, warrants more attention in my opinion.  The front 9 is among the hardest consecutive holes I've ever played and there really isn't a breather among them.  The back 9 doesn't provide much respite.  Further, winning scores for the annual Northeast Amateur are typically around par (past winners include Luke Donald, Ben Crenshaw and Dustin Johnson). 

[Tim Martin]

Chris-I don't know which deserves more weight but Wannamoisett is certainly masterful in both respects. When walking off 18 green I don't think it would occur to anyone that the golf course is routed on just 104 acres as you never get a feeling that is is cramped or that any of the holes are "shoved in". He really got the most possible out of a fairly mundane piece of land and delivered an extremely interesting golf course. I couldn't agree more that it is one of the toughest outward nines in golf and Ross doesn't employ the idea of a "gentle handshake" on 1. I had a friend call to tell me a few years ago that he had gotten to play Wannamoisett and that he wasn't sure what all the fuss was about regarding the difficulty of the second hole as he in fact made a 5. When I informed him that it was a par four he was stunned and just assumed it was a par five. The two holes on the front that would be considered "short" fours being 5 and 7 have diabolical greens that can leave you reeling. The par fours just keep coming at you and you don't get the one and only par 5 until 17. One of the finest examples of Ross's exceptional talent.

[Tom_Doak]

Has either of you seen the original plan for Wannamoisett ?  What did Donald Ross say was par for the course?

When it was built the cut-off for a par-4 was 445 yards ... I'd guess that it had one or two more par-5 holes then than it does today, but the acreage of the course prevented the club from lengthening them to retain the par, like most other clubs did.

It's a great course, and I love that it's a par-69, but I think the difficulty of the course is just a product of them changing par.

[Keith OHalloran]

TD,
I spoke to T Martin, he is not in a place to respond tonight, but he confirmed that he made his post without referencing the original plan, or any relevant material.

[Tim Martin]

Tom-My guess would be that # 2 could have been a par 5 but that the rest of the card is the same. There are a number of new tees that were added to keep the course relevant for the Northeast Amateur.

[Mark Steffey]

i love wannamoisett.

however i really don't look at it (or any course) on how difficult it is.

does it offer me the challenge of having to pull of different shots?
do i have to move right & left.
can i hit greens from the air or can i run it on.
will i use a large percentage of my clubs - both off the tee as well as on approaches.
do i see things here that i don't see everywhere else i go.
will i be challenged around the greens to recover.
will i be challenged around the greens when i don't need to recover.

i think wannamoisett passes each of these with ease.

THEN after this it occurs to me that this course is shoehorned into that small slice of the neighborhood.

i could play there every single day and never get tired of it.

[Tim Martin]

The Tufts Archives has the drawings on file and # 2 is listed at 453 yards which would have been a par 5 and stretched it to 70. It would have been a great half par hole with the creek to challenge if going for the green in two. I don't think par would have changed on any of the other holes after looking at the rest of the drawings.

[Chris DeToro]

Yes, that's correct--the 1931 PGA played as a par 70 with the second hole playing as a par 5.  It actually played at 6500 yards during the tournament--pretty stout I would imagine for its day

[Jim_Kennedy]

An article about the '31 championship noted that WCC was long for a par 70.

[Chris DeToro]

Even today, I think it would be considered long especially as a par 69, but even as a par 70.  There really aren't a lot of great scoring holes.  If you make 2 a par 5, that becomes a scoring hole, but outside of that, it's really only 7, 11, 13 and 17. 

[BCrosby]

6500 yards at par 70 in 1931 was long indeed.

How long? Doing the math, let's assume pros averaged 230 from the tee in 1931 and that they average 286 today. 

If you want a modern course to play for pros today as WCC did for pros in 1931, the modern course would need to be about 8100 yards.

I don't have the slightest doubt that if the PGA conducted its championship today on a 8100 yard, par 70 course, there would be howls of protest. Heaven forbid, (some) players might be forced to hit long irons into (some) par 4's.

Bob

[Tim Martin]

Even today, I think it would be considered long especially as a par 69, but even as a par 70.  There really aren't a lot of great scoring holes.  If you make 2 a par 5, that becomes a scoring hole, but outside of that, it's really only 7, 11, 13 and 17.  

The par 5 17th is the easiest hole on the golf course and there is a good chance that by the time you get there your card looks like the formula for kinetic energy. As far as 2 if you make it a par five it is still an extremely difficult hole to two putt because with a short pin almost anything  long(high of the hole) is a three jack. I really don't think 7 is a scoring hole because despite it's shortish length there are immense challenges on and the around the green. I agree that 11 and 13 are holes that can be "gotten".

[Chris DeToro]

Many think the 3rd hole is the easiest on the course, but I certainly don't feel that way.  It's probably one of my favorite holes anywhere and missing the green makes for a near impossible up and down. 

17 still has a lot of movement in the green and is a lot narrower on the left than many realize especially if you go for the green.  Miss to the right and you leave a difficult up and down dealing with the mound on the right side of the green