[David Stamm]

I find there to be far too much focus on what Watson did wrong and far too little on how good the European team was. Honestly, I'm not sure if it would've mattered if Watson had made the right picks or sent the right matches out, Europe would've still come out on top. I know we'll never know the answer, but I can't help but think that all the arm chair quarter backing from Mickelson might be a reaction to the fact that level of play between the respective tours is so even that it's negligible.  

The facts as I see it are this: the U.S. tour is no longer the king of the mountain. We are and have been witnessing the global golf scene take over and there are not any heir apparent to TW.

[Sean Leary]

Wonder what Phil would have said if asked what Couples does as a captain to lead them to success in the President's Cup..

[Mark Bourgeois]

David, doesn't it confirm the US PGAT is king? This comp looked like Orlando Red vs Orlando Blue.

[Lou_Duran]

David,

No doubt that the Europeans were outstanding.  But were they 7 to 1 better at foursomes based on talent and performance, or was it a function of poor pairings, lack of a TEAM concept, and perhaps insufficient preparation in that format?  These are areas where the captain has great input and the accompanying responsibility.

I think that senior members of the team earn the right to influence the captain.  The reports are that Watson had near zero rapport with the players and though he may have been persuaded by the pleas of a comparatively unimpressive young player (Simpson- yeah, he won the US Open at a course with a history of producing dark horse winners), he disregarded Phil's assurances that he had fixed his problems and was ready to go.  Had Watson been benched by his captain, he may not have done it publicly, but he would have had his comeuppance in the end.

I do agree with you that the U.S. no longer dominates at the top.  From my standpoint, some of my favorite players are "foreigners".  Hopefully our boys will step up their efforts, but I am not at all concerned that golf is becoming more global.  I also agree that there is no domestic heir apparent to Mr. Woods.  I've been fortunate to have seen two of the best in Nicklaus and Woods in my lifetime.  If the next one is an Irish lad, that's fine by me.  I sure like nearly everything about him.

Congrats to the European team!

[Will Spivey]

I understand the sentiment "golf is an individual sport, these guys are pros, etc.," but the more I think about this the more I believe the captain CAN make a big difference.  The GD linked earlier was a great look into what can be done to build a team from individual athletes.

I also wonder what can be learned from the Team USA basketball experience?  Here you have a team of All Stars, all multimillionaires, who are used to having their way at nearly all times with their teams.  Hell, only 5 of them can start a game, the rest start on the pine, which for these guys probably hasn't ever happened in their entire lives. 

Here's a great story from the Wall Street Journal discussing what Coach K did to "motivate" these guys to play for their country:  http://online.wsj.com/articles/how-coach-k-motivates-usa-basketball-1410474885.

What should the next captain learn from Coach K?

[Dan Kelly]

So what did Watson do wrong?  He thought he was the smartest guy in the room.

I think that's what he has in common with Mickelson -- and goes a long way toward explaining everything.

[David Stamm]

David, doesn't it confirm the US PGAT is king? This comp looked like Orlando Red vs Orlando Blue.

No, not to my mind. My comment was based on a "top to bottom" tour comparison. In the past, after about 8 or 9 players, the drop off on the European Tour was noticeable.  Not anymore. I honestly think the European players as a whole are tougher. They have to be. They travel far more than their American rivals on their tour (read more expensive going tour event to tour event) and are not coddled to the same degree, and far greater cultural and time zone adjustments. The money is less ( not nearly as less as it used to be) which means the players are fighting harder.

I find the European players more interesting and the courses they play more diverse,  which makes for more interesting viewing IMO and more well rounded players.

[Phil McDade]

I think there is also the F**k You factor that the GB&I team has that we don't.  Paul Casey said it several years ago when he stated that they bloody hate the U.S. team when it comes to the Ryder Cup (I'm paraphrasing here).  He took a lot of grief for that comment, but I think it's very true.  They have the attitude towards the guys on the U.S. team that they are prima donnas, we're arrogant about our world rankings and that we play on the best tour in the world, so how can we lose.  The U.S. doesn't have that attitude toward GB&I.  I don't see any dislike for them when it comes to playing the Ryder Cup matches, until Patrick Reed came along this year.  They might not admit it, but I think they still have some of that dislike (F.U. factor) towards us and it fuels their fire.

I think that's why the U.S. performs so much better in the President's Cup.  The International team doesn't seem that have that dislike for us the way the GB&I team does.  When I watch those matches, it appears to be a much more cordial event and the U.S. team seems to play their best.  

I know captains play a big role, but there are so many other factors at play.  JMO.

I think this observation rings true.

The list of U.S. Ryder Cup players (since the inclusion of continental European players in 1979) who have won a major and have losing records in the Ryder Cup is pretty lengthy: Furyk, Bubba Watson, Webb Simpson, O'Meara, Love, Leonard, Crenshaw, Couples, Duval, Bill Rogers (!), Payne Stewart, Strange, Toms, and led of course by America's best two golfers the last two decades -- Mickelson and Woods. It's far longer than the list of American major winners who have winning records in the Ryder Cup since Euro' 79: Kite, Pavin, Wadkins, and Irwin sort of (he played 3 of his 5 RCups from '79 on).

The list of Euro players who did not/have yet to win a major and have winning Ryder Cup records is lengthy as well. Players of fairly modest accomplishment who never won a major -- Parnevik, Casey, Rocca, Pinero, Canizares -- all have winning RC records since 1979. And then there are the big ones; none have won a major, and here's what they've done in the Ryder Cup:

Monty: 20-9-7
Garcia: 18-9-5
Westwood: 18-13-6
Poulter: 12-4-2
Donald: 10-4-1

I don't know how you compare those two lists and not come to the conclusion that European players simply take the Ryder Cup more seriously than U.S. ones do, prepare for it better, and perform under the pressure of the Ryder Cup better than the Americans. Euro is simply better at this than the U.S.

[David Stamm]

Lou, I pretty much agree with your post.

[David Stamm]

I think there is also the F**k You factor that the GB&I team has that we don't.  Paul Casey said it several years ago when he stated that they bloody hate the U.S. team when it comes to the Ryder Cup (I'm paraphrasing here).  He took a lot of grief for that comment, but I think it's very true.  They have the attitude towards the guys on the U.S. team that they are prima donnas, we're arrogant about our world rankings and that we play on the best tour in the world, so how can we lose.  The U.S. doesn't have that attitude toward GB&I.  I don't see any dislike for them when it comes to playing the Ryder Cup matches, until Patrick Reed came along this year.  They might not admit it, but I think they still have some of that dislike (F.U. factor) towards us and it fuels their fire.

I think that's why the U.S. performs so much better in the President's Cup.  The International team doesn't seem that have that dislike for us the way the GB&I team does.  When I watch those matches, it appears to be a much more cordial event and the U.S. team seems to play their best.  

I know captains play a big role, but there are so many other factors at play.  JMO.

I think this observation rings true.

The list of U.S. Ryder Cup players (since the inclusion of continental European players in 1979) who have won a major and have losing records in the Ryder Cup is pretty lengthy: Furyk, Bubba Watson, Webb Simpson, O'Meara, Love, Leonard, Crenshaw, Couples, Duval, Bill Rogers (!), Payne Stewart, Strange, Toms, and led of course by America's best two golfers the last two decades -- Mickelson and Woods. It's far longer than the list of American major winners who have winning records in the Ryder Cup since Euro' 79: Kite, Pavin, Wadkins, and Irwin sort of (he played 3 of his 5 RCups from '79 on).

The list of Euro players who did not/have yet to win a major and have winning Ryder Cup records is lengthy as well. Players of fairly modest accomplishment who never won a major -- Parnevik, Casey, Rocca, Pinero, Canizares -- all have winning RC records since 1979. And then there are the big ones; none have won a major, and here's what they've done in the Ryder Cup:

Monty: 20-9-7
Garcia: 18-9-5
Westwood: 18-13-6
Poulter: 12-4-2
Donald: 10-4-1

I don't know how you compare those two lists and not come to the conclusion that European players simply take the Ryder Cup more seriously than U.S. ones do, prepare for it better, and perform under the pressure of the Ryder Cup better than the Americans. Euro is simply better at this than the U.S.

Good post Phil. I think you're spot on. I would add that if you look at players who did not go on to win majors, it does not take away from their reputations of being assassin's in the Ryder Cup. Monty and Torrance spring to mind.

And FWIW, I would rather hang with a Torrance or O'Connor and have a pint or two than just about any American major winner I can think of as of late.

[Bruce Katona]

Well..........the Captain goes down with his ship and the US players didn't play well and deserve to be put under the microscope......and the opposition played well.  Not a recipe for success.

Lets look at the top to see where the problem may really lie...perhaps the PGA of America needs to examine what they've been responsible for overseeing for the past 20 years and see if their system of selection, captaincy, player motivation requires a tune up?

The USPGA owns 50% of the event. Everyone likes to win when they compete, but if the PGA coffers are being filled nicely with or without a win, why swim against the tide and tinker with things.  It's not like players get a cut of the profits or soemthing fabulous they otherwise couldn't afford if they win and pay their own way if they lose.

[Rich Goodale]

I think there is also the F**k You factor that the GB&I team has that we don't.  Paul Casey said it several years ago when he stated that they bloody hate the U.S. team when it comes to the Ryder Cup (I'm paraphrasing here).  He took a lot of grief for that comment, but I think it's very true.  They have the attitude towards the guys on the U.S. team that they are prima donnas, we're arrogant about our world rankings and that we play on the best tour in the world, so how can we lose.  The U.S. doesn't have that attitude toward GB&I.  I don't see any dislike for them when it comes to playing the Ryder Cup matches, until Patrick Reed came along this year.  They might not admit it, but I think they still have some of that dislike (F.U. factor) towards us and it fuels their fire.

I think that's why the U.S. performs so much better in the President's Cup.  The International team doesn't seem that have that dislike for us the way the GB&I team does.  When I watch those matches, it appears to be a much more cordial event and the U.S. team seems to play their best.  

I know captains play a big role, but there are so many other factors at play.  JMO.

I think this observation rings true.

The list of U.S. Ryder Cup players (since the inclusion of continental European players in 1979) who have won a major and have losing records in the Ryder Cup is pretty lengthy: Furyk, Bubba Watson, Webb Simpson, O'Meara, Love, Leonard, Crenshaw, Couples, Duval, Bill Rogers (!), Payne Stewart, Strange, Toms, and led of course by America's best two golfers the last two decades -- Mickelson and Woods. It's far longer than the list of American major winners who have winning records in the Ryder Cup since Euro' 79: Kite, Pavin, Wadkins, and Irwin sort of (he played 3 of his 5 RCups from '79 on).

The list of Euro players who did not/have yet to win a major and have winning Ryder Cup records is lengthy as well. Players of fairly modest accomplishment who never won a major -- Parnevik, Casey, Rocca, Pinero, Canizares -- all have winning RC records since 1979. And then there are the big ones; none have won a major, and here's what they've done in the Ryder Cup:

Monty: 20-9-7
Garcia: 18-9-5
Westwood: 18-13-6
Poulter: 12-4-2
Donald: 10-4-1

I don't know how you compare those two lists and not come to the conclusion that European players simply take the Ryder Cup more seriously than U.S. ones do, prepare for it better, and perform under the pressure of the Ryder Cup better than the Americans. Euro is simply better at this than the U.S.

Good post Phil. I think you're spot on. I would add that if you look at players who did not go on to win majors, it does not take away from their reputations of being assassin's in the Ryder Cup. Monty and Torrance spring to mind.

And FWIW, I would rather hang with a Torrance or O'Connor and have a pint or two than just about any American major winner I can think of as of late.

David

I hung with Torrance for a couple of hours a few years ago and it is contention for the most entertaining two hours of my life.

[Garland Bayley]

... I forget which US captain introduced his team as the twelve best golfers in the world,

 when we had Seve, Bernhard, Faldo, Woosie etc, but that didn't go down too well....

It was Ben Hogan,

and you didn't have Seve, Bernhard, ...

[Adam Lawrence]

... I forget which US captain introduced his team as the twelve best golfers in the world,

 when we had Seve, Bernhard, Faldo, Woosie etc, but that didn't go down too well....

It was Ben Hogan,

and you didn't have Seve, Bernhard, ...

Floyd. And we did. See above.

[Tim_Weiman]

I don't know what Watson did wrong, but my experience playing in Europe (mostly Ireland and Scotland) suggests to me that European are just better at match play. That's my non expert opinion.

P.S. And the Irish are definitely the best at social, match play golf.

[Garland Bayley]

... I forget which US captain introduced his team as the twelve best golfers in the world,

 when we had Seve, Bernhard, Faldo, Woosie etc, but that didn't go down too well....

It was Ben Hogan,

and you didn't have Seve, Bernhard, ...

Floyd. And we did. See above.

Are you sure?

"We have the best team, they have the home-course advantage," Watson said. 1993 Ryder Cup at Belfry.
August 17, 1993, Chicago Tribune

[Brent Carlson]

I don't think Watson did anything wrong per se.  The Euros care for this event much more than Americans.  Golf is an individual sport.  The Ryder Cup is not that important in the grand scheme of things.  That being said it is fun to watch.

[JLahrman]

I find there to be far too much focus on what Watson did wrong and far too little on how good the European team was. Honestly, I'm not sure if it would've mattered if Watson had made the right picks or sent the right matches out, Europe would've still come out on top. I know we'll never know the answer, but I can't help but think that all the arm chair quarter backing from Mickelson might be a reaction to the fact that level of play between the respective tours is so even that it's negligible.  

The facts as I see it are this: the U.S. tour is no longer the king of the mountain. We are and have been witnessing the global golf scene take over and there are not any heir apparent to TW.

Fair enough but back in the 1980s and 1990s the Euros seemed to do quite nicely in the event despite a decided lack of depth on paper.

[Garland Bayley]

... I forget which US captain introduced his team as the twelve best golfers in the world,

 when we had Seve, Bernhard, Faldo, Woosie etc, but that didn't go down too well....

It was Ben Hogan,

and you didn't have Seve, Bernhard, ...

Then how do you explain this article?

http://www.rydercup.com/2006/europe/history/results/1989.html

Easy, Ben got such a negative reaction, that I assumed no one would be foolish enough to repeat it.
I was wrong. I underestimated the hubris of the professional golfer.

[David Stamm]

I find there to be far too much focus on what Watson did wrong and far too little on how good the European team was. Honestly, I'm not sure if it would've mattered if Watson had made the right picks or sent the right matches out, Europe would've still come out on top. I know we'll never know the answer, but I can't help but think that all the arm chair quarter backing from Mickelson might be a reaction to the fact that level of play between the respective tours is so even that it's negligible.  

The facts as I see it are this: the U.S. tour is no longer the king of the mountain. We are and have been witnessing the global golf scene take over and there are not any heir apparent to TW.

Fair enough but back in the 1980s and 1990s the Euros seemed to do quite nicely in the event despite a decided lack of depth on paper.

True, but those European teams relied heavily on 6 or 7 players on Friday and Saturday and hid their weak links until Sunday. IIRC, the U.S. would traditionally win the singles matches.

Those days are over. Both teams are at least even from players 1 thru 12.

[Garland Bayley]

It takes a big man to say admit he underestimated the hubris of the professional golfer.

 

Let's keep my obesity out of this!

[Rich Goodale]

Watson's problems began when he was top of the world in the early-mid 80's and he started to refer to himself in the 3rd person.  It has been all a gradual downhill slide since then.

[Tim Martin]

Watson's problems began when he was top of the world in the early-mid 80's and he started to refer to himself in the 3rd person.  It has been all a gradual downhill slide since then.

 

[David Stamm]

I think there is also the F**k You factor that the GB&I team has that we don't.  Paul Casey said it several years ago when he stated that they bloody hate the U.S. team when it comes to the Ryder Cup (I'm paraphrasing here).  He took a lot of grief for that comment, but I think it's very true.  They have the attitude towards the guys on the U.S. team that they are prima donnas, we're arrogant about our world rankings and that we play on the best tour in the world, so how can we lose.  The U.S. doesn't have that attitude toward GB&I.  I don't see any dislike for them when it comes to playing the Ryder Cup matches, until Patrick Reed came along this year.  They might not admit it, but I think they still have some of that dislike (F.U. factor) towards us and it fuels their fire.

I think that's why the U.S. performs so much better in the President's Cup.  The International team doesn't seem that have that dislike for us the way the GB&I team does.  When I watch those matches, it appears to be a much more cordial event and the U.S. team seems to play their best.  

I know captains play a big role, but there are so many other factors at play.  JMO.

I think this observation rings true.

The list of U.S. Ryder Cup players (since the inclusion of continental European players in 1979) who have won a major and have losing records in the Ryder Cup is pretty lengthy: Furyk, Bubba Watson, Webb Simpson, O'Meara, Love, Leonard, Crenshaw, Couples, Duval, Bill Rogers (!), Payne Stewart, Strange, Toms, and led of course by America's best two golfers the last two decades -- Mickelson and Woods. It's far longer than the list of American major winners who have winning records in the Ryder Cup since Euro' 79: Kite, Pavin, Wadkins, and Irwin sort of (he played 3 of his 5 RCups from '79 on).

The list of Euro players who did not/have yet to win a major and have winning Ryder Cup records is lengthy as well. Players of fairly modest accomplishment who never won a major -- Parnevik, Casey, Rocca, Pinero, Canizares -- all have winning RC records since 1979. And then there are the big ones; none have won a major, and here's what they've done in the Ryder Cup:

Monty: 20-9-7
Garcia: 18-9-5
Westwood: 18-13-6
Poulter: 12-4-2
Donald: 10-4-1

I don't know how you compare those two lists and not come to the conclusion that European players simply take the Ryder Cup more seriously than U.S. ones do, prepare for it better, and perform under the pressure of the Ryder Cup better than the Americans. Euro is simply better at this than the U.S.

Good post Phil. I think you're spot on. I would add that if you look at players who did not go on to win majors, it does not take away from their reputations of being assassin's in the Ryder Cup. Monty and Torrance spring to mind.

And FWIW, I would rather hang with a Torrance or O'Connor and have a pint or two than just about any American major winner I can think of as of late.

David

I hung with Torrance for a couple of hours a few years ago and it is contention for the most entertaining two hours of my life.

That sounds like it was time we'll spent! I'm a Torrance fan. His interview with Feherty was great.

[A.G._Crockett]

I don't think Watson did anything wrong per se.  The Euros care for this event much more than Americans.  Golf is an individual sport.  The Ryder Cup is not that important in the grand scheme of things.  That being said it is fun to watch.

Brent,
Just start with Friday, and look at the decision to sit Reed and Speith after they had won 5 and 4 in the morning, and instead play an arthritic 43 yr. old and a captain's pick with the golf equivalent of Tourette's in an alternate shot format after watching them hit the ball all over Scotland that morning.  It was just inexplicable, and worked out about as well as expected.

Then assume that neither good nor bad decisions fly alone, but that they tend to come in flocks.  

That was Watson's captaincy.  That does NOT mean that it cost the US a victory, and certainly doesn't take away from how well the Euros played.  But he put himself on the Mt. Rushmore of weird/bad Ryder Cup captains with Sutton and Strange Curtis.  (I'd put Faldo up there with them, but that's another argument.)

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