Tommy N:
Now -- now my good man from the left coast.
I don't need bazillion yards of length and absolutely zero quality points based on serious architectural merits. That's a stretch and a reinforcement of a stereotype. All I said Tommy was the single-minded focus / obsession with "the look" to the near exclusion of how a course plays.
I have to say that from time to time the Juuuuuursee guy does "get it" although others love to stereotype me. Tommy --I thought you were a much smarter guy than one who mouths off that it's OK to have opinions on courses that they have not played. So be it.
Tommy -- I don't say things, positive or negative, about any course until I have played it. I do make note of what people have said but really don't you think you're statement in your last post is a bit foolish given your passion for the game.
One last thing -- I'll let you know how Ireland turns out as well.
Tim W:
"Thanks. Getting back to the subject of this thread, my impression is that Matt Ward is trying to say that if Dave Moriarty or anyone else were to say that they would like to play Friar's Head but would have no interest in playing The Bridge, that must be evidence of bias or an unwillingness to make up one's own mind."
You need to re-read what I posted -- not what you THINK I posted. I never said any such thing. All I said is that there are people on GCA who like to float broad generalities about architect's and then others chime in and basically parrot the same thing and on and on the ferris wheel turns. The reality is that very few people have played a wide sampling of an architect's portfolio and on top of that so few have played the course in question (The Bridge). If people chose to forego The Bridge and only play Friar's Head or any other course so be it.
Tim -- you say you've heard plenty of talk about one course and little of the other. That's the same theory that people said about the world being flat. Plenty -- likely millions said the world is flat UNTIL someone proved otherwise. Just like you said about your many visits to Ireland there are different courses for different folks. All I said is that people should avoid CONCRETE statements until they play the course. To do otherwise speaks volumes about the person making such ill-conceived statements.
David M:
Nothing wrong with having people having different tests.
I never made an issue about your tests in golf -- you were the one who raised the comment that my methodology was somehow inconsistent in how I apply it. I don't believe that and have said so a bazillion times.
People like to stereoptype people and I find that when people like me list courses that aren't 8,000 yards with OB and H20 on both sides of EVERY hole they must wonder what's happened to Ward -- I thought he only liked courses with 78+ course ratings and 150+ slopes. How nice to know people care so deeply and how equally nice for them to be so utterly wrong.
Let's answer a few of your questions -- the last time I played SFGC was close to a decade ago. So, I have not played the course since the recent work was completed. From my memory fo the course the question of placement and working the ball off the tee was a big plus to the player who could do such a thing time after time. No, the greens are not as savage as you might find at other Tillie courses -- Fenway and Somerset Hills come quickly to mind of other courses of such length but you still had a fine allotment of different holes and there was enough movement of the holes to keep the player honest at a number of the tees.
The same holds true for the Valley Course because, again, if memory serves, there are enough stout two-shotters to keep the the interest of the longer players. I last played there about five years ago.
David -- if you came to Long Island I would certainly have you play Shinnecock Hills - the finest course I have played in the States. National would also merit a visit. I also like Garden City GC but on my most recent visits to the club I have become concerned with the "softness" (beyond the rain we have experienced this summer) and that can take away from the outstanding characteristics that make playing there so special IMHO.
I would also have you visit Bethpage Black and as a corollary to that visit also sample the Red Course which is often underappreciated because of the "buzz" the Black generates.
As far as a fifth course I'd have to say playing The Bridge is out because of what you have heard from others and knowing you as I do I think you would probably not gain much from playing there -- let's not forget all the negative crap that people have thrown forward to pollute the waters. With that said -- I enjoyed the layout and I have pointed out over and over again the aspects the course has and those that it doesn't. Clearly, there is plenty of "buzz" about Friar's Head and if I happen to play there it would be interesting to see what everyone is saying.
Given the nature of what I believe you may find compelling I'd probably opt either for The Creek or Piping Rock. Architecturally speaking they have more aspects YOU would find noteworthy than The Bridge although for my $$ I'd rather play The Bridge. Let me also mention that neither The Bridge, Piping Rock or The Creek would make my personal top 100 listing for a numebr of reasons although they are fine courses in a number of ways.
David, given how much you love Rustic Canyon (I do too with one small difference that's been discussed previously) and how it was designed I just believe you would find The Bridge to be too demanding on the tee game and a course that doesn't have enough variety in the routing and shot values to interest YOU. I believe there are quality holes but there are flaws -- as there are with others on the Island (see Maidstone as example). To be totally frank -- that's a guess because until you played it I can't say for sure. It's no different than you telling me if I would like a course or not before I actually played it (remember my e-mail to you regarding Jacobsen's new layout at Moorpark).
David -- you're right -- we do have different approaches to how we assess golf courses. That's healthy -- all I ever said was that people need to play courses for the sure fire way to know whether they will like it or not. All in all, we're not that much different -- it's just like Tom Doak said in "Confidential Guide" -- if people agree about 80% of the time chalk up the rest as a difference of opinion.