[Ally Mcintosh]

There's a theory that suggests that architects start out pushing all sorts of boundaries but that over time - partly through experience and partly through conservatism brought about by age - they get milder as they go on....

With that in mind (and prompted by the wild set of greens at one of Tom Simpson's first courses, the Valliere at Morfontaine), is there a consensus on each well known architect's wildest set of greens? And where does it fall in that particular architect's timeline?

Thanks,
Ally

[Jason Topp]

It seemed that Brauer went the other way - at least with his Minnesota courses from relatively tame (Giant's Ridge Quarry) to quite wild (Wilderness Fortune Bay).  From his posts I believe he has gotten a bit more conservative since then.

David M. Kidd also went wilder and wilder, peaking by most accounts with the Castle Course.  I believe he has also tamed his approach a but.

It seems to me that Coore/Crenshaw became somewhat more bold after their early efforts.  Kapalua Plantation and Barton Creek greens are interesting but not particularly severe.  I am not sure of their path after that.

Doak has seemed pretty consistent based on the courses I have played.  Streamsong Blue's greens played the most severe but it was January, cold and windy.  That seems like a recipe for greens playing about as fast as they can.

Nicklaus seems to have generally followed the pattern you suggest - with his green getting more mellow with time.   

[Ally Mcintosh]

It seemed that Brauer went the other way - at least with his Minnesota courses from relatively tame (Giant's Ridge Quarry) to quite wild (Wilderness Fortune Bay).  From his posts I believe he has gotten a bit more conservative since then.

David M. Kidd also went wilder and wilder, peaking by most accounts with the Castle Course.  I believe he has also tamed his approach a but.

It seems to me that Coore/Crenshaw became somewhat more bold after their early efforts.  Kapalua Plantation and Barton Creek greens are interesting but not particularly severe.  I am not sure of their path after that.

Doak has seemed pretty consistent based on the courses I have played.  Streamsong Blue's greens played the most severe but it was January, cold and windy.  That seems like a recipe for greens playing about as fast as they can.

Nicklaus seems to have generally followed the pattern you suggest - with his green getting more mellow with time.   

Funny, I would say Nicklaus has definitely gone t'other way and got wilder as he's gone on... Whereas I think Kidd has mellowed with his wildest stuff probably as much to do with Paul Kimber as himself...

Maybe with more modern architects, the wildness follows a trend that way since the mid-eighties to early noughties and then possibly it's starting to go back again?

What about the ODG's though?

Valliere (1911) seems to be Tom Simpson's mad masterpiece
The Eden (1913) certainly has the biggest movement out of any Harry Colt greens I've seen (even the long abandoned 2nd which is still there as a practice green)
Maybe Sitwell Park was MacKenzies based on the only two greens I've seen photos of and the reaction by his client.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jason,

I presume you mean the Legends at Giants Ridge were mild?  Quarry and Wilderness both have some contours......

But yes, I started in the mild mode, but as sort of a reaction to the real flat greens, I started going a bit bolder.  The two courses listed above, Indian Creek in Dallas, the other Wilderness in Lake Jackson, TX, all had some complaints about the contours.  Besides complaints, I saw the results of some of those, including watching bad golfers putt, and their effects on speed of play, and now am way back to the mild side.  It is influenced by the site and owners goals.

For instance, now working at Superior National in Lutsen, MN on a redo.  They got a lot of complaints on the old greens, and one of my theories of renovations is to really fix what golfers complain about.  So, most of the greens were carefully measured and few areas exceed 2% slope.  Those were circa 1988 greens (Herfort and Goldstrand) just before the explosion of green speeds, and they probably average 3-5% in many areas.  Hopefully, we will give golfers one less course complaint to keep them coming back.......

[PCCraig]

It seemed that Brauer went the other way - at least with his Minnesota courses from relatively tame (Giant's Ridge Quarry) to quite wild (Wilderness Fortune Bay).  From his posts I believe he has gotten a bit more conservative since then.

David M. Kidd also went wilder and wilder, peaking by most accounts with the Castle Course.  I believe he has also tamed his approach a but.

It seems to me that Coore/Crenshaw became somewhat more bold after their early efforts.  Kapalua Plantation and Barton Creek greens are interesting but not particularly severe.  I am not sure of their path after that.

Doak has seemed pretty consistent based on the courses I have played.  Streamsong Blue's greens played the most severe but it was January, cold and windy.  That seems like a recipe for greens playing about as fast as they can.

Nicklaus seems to have generally followed the pattern you suggest - with his green getting more mellow with time.   

Jason,

If the Castle Course's greens are more wild than the greens he built at Huntsman Springs...I want to see them!

The most severe set of greens I've seen of Doak's is Lost Dunes.

Nicklaus' most severe, that I've seen (maybe the most severe I've seen anywhere) are at Harbor Shores in Michigan.

[Blake Conant]

Walter Travis - Cape Arundal, 1920.  Middle of his career. 

[Alex Lagowitz]

RTJ at Cornell - beginning of career

[Tom_Doak]

RTJ at Cornell - beginning of career

That's interesting ... I never tried to think about what was Mr. Jones' most severe set of greens.  I probably would have said Peachtree, though I don't remember it as well as the Cornell course.  I did have a six-putt [in competition!] on the 13th green at Cornell, but it was to a very sketchy hole location, only a foot or two on top of the tier in the green.

I am not sure this theory holds much weight, though.  Green contours are usually a response to a given site ... Dr. MacKenzie's most severe greens were either at Sitwell Park [early/middle of career] or Pasatiempo or Augusta [end of career], because those were the hilliest sites he worked on. 

For modern architects, the trend line may be toward gentler greens, because as one gets older and more well recognized, one has more to lose by building a course deemed "too severe".  The same response can also be a function of technology -- a reaction to modern greens becoming faster and faster over the past 50 years.  However, there is an inverse reaction to technology as well -- as players hit further and further, some believe that greens are the only place where par can really be defended -- that's why Jack Nicklaus' most severe greens are the ones he's built in the last 5-6 years.

[Sean_A]

some believe that greens are the only place where par can really be defended

I wonder who the above line is directed towards.  I have always had a suspicion of this sort of thinking is really an excuse to design to the top level of the game.  In any case, I hate the idea of archies believing they "need to defend par".

Ciao

[Adam Warren]

Art Hills greens at Persimmon Ridge are something to see.  Easily the most severe set of greens I have encountered.

[Jeff_Brauer]

"However, there is an inverse reaction to technology as well -- as players hit further and further, some believe that greens are the only place where par can really be defended -- that's why Jack Nicklaus' most severe greens are the ones he's built in the last 5-6 years."

Interesting to note that in contrast to what I have been thinking as I become one of those old fart golfers......Jack still may think in terms of tournament golf, although his public statements say he is leaning more towards playability.

Also, I think in terms of what's been built - basically, in the 1990-2006 period, we ALL built courses suited for some kind of tournament that would never come.  Currently, I am thinking we have too many tough courses, that slow play, at a time when we are trying to encourage more newbs and speed play.  What is the logical design response?

The most interesting thing about this thread is that we tend to lump the "Golden Age" or even the "RTJ era" or "Dye era" into one pot, when all those guys practiced over decades, and probably did have different influences.  Most famous is probably Tillies conversion from championship course builder to bunker remover in the depression.  Also, recall Pete Dye saying he hasn't used railroad ties in 30 (?) years, but somehow, that image still sticks as one of the key design principles in most folks mind!

Add in the idea that we all want to try different things, and you gotta figure that each architect has a course (or subset period of their career) where greens were wilder.  Not sure we can pinpoint if all of us have that phase early, late, in the middle, because the experiences we all have are so different, including external influences, like the economy, mentioned a few times above.  

Certainly one influence is the fewer courses you have an opportunity to design, the more you want to put any ideas you might have into any given course, subconsciously thinking you may never get another chance!  I can say that almost every new associate I ever had felt the need to overdesign on their first project, which needed some toning down.

[Josh Tarble]

I have to believe French Lick is close to the most severe set of greens Ross ever built.  That would line up with what Tom said, as the site is incredibly severe as well.

[Ben Hollerbach]

I have to believe French Lick is close to the most severe set of greens Ross ever built.  That would line up with what Tom said, as the site is incredibly severe as well.

French Lick was the first place I thought of for Ross. Of course with the scale of the property they don't seem out of place.

[Chris DeToro]

French Lick's greens are severe but I agree with the others that stated that they are in line with the rest of the property.  Ross' greens at flatter sites like Wannamoisett and Pinehurst are pretty severe given the rest of the landscape in my opinion

[Ben Klaas]

Club at Clear Creek for C&C.

This comment doesn't apply to all of the green complexes, although I remember some of the holes in the middle of the round had some quirky greens that would not be able to hold some of the green speeds that their members are going to be clamering for.

[Keith Phillips]

I believe he's only done one course, but Eric Bergstol sure built a wild (and fun) set of greens at Bayonne!

[Ed Homsey]

Rooss at Teugaga CC and Travis at CC of Troy.  Just returned from a round at Onondaga GCC where the Travis greens that remain have little of the internal contours associated with greens at some of his other courses.  Onondaga;s course was constructed within the same time frame as Westchester, and by the same contractor (William Flynn).

[Chris_Blakely]

I believe he's only done one course, but Eric Bergstol sure built a wild (and fun) set of greens at Bayonne!

Eric Bergstol has also done the following courses:

Pine Barrens GC; Jackson, NJ
Trump National GC - Hudson Valley (FNA Branton Woods); Hopewell Junction, NY

[Scott Warren]

some believe that greens are the only place where par can really be defended

I wonder who the above line is directed towards.  I have always had a suspicion of this sort of thinking is really an excuse to design to the top level of the game.  In any case, I hate the idea of archies believing they "need to defend par".

Ciao

I see it the exact opposite - building the challenge at and around the greens is the most inclusive possible way.

Golfers have more fun when they are "in the hole" for the longest possible time. Wide fairways with meaningful angles and challenging, interesting greens achieve that for the greatest number of golfers

[Sean_A]

Scott

Yes, I generally agree with you, but I prefer to see archies show a bit of flair here and there and keep the remaining stuff subtle and interesting.  Why, I have reservations around three issues.  First, width; I think very harsh greens need tons of width and I am not sure the economic climate of golf will support the necessary width.  Two, green speeds; I am not seeing any signs that greens are going to slow down, therefore greens need to be toned down or golfers will constantly face three putting or worse - thats about as boring and time consuming as stupid rough.  Finally, things can get a bit carried away if archies aren't careful to properly assess the terrain and potential weather conditions of a site.  Many complain about less than exciting links greens, but its a fine line between that and what happened at the Castle Course.  

Ciao

[Jeff_Brauer]

Sean,

I generally agree with Scott, too, in theory, but your points are probably more valid. Given the economy, we could do wider fw, but only by accepting lesser conditions, which I also don't see, at least in the US.  Those expectations continue to rise almost as much as those for green conditions.  (Not quite as high as we now expect for bunker conditions, though!

Someone asked on another thread about stats for "roll after landing" for tour pros.  What designers really need in setting green contours might be "average miss on greens with 2%/3%/4%" by average players, of course. In other words, do rolling greens induce longer second, third and fourth putts at some point, and what is that point at green speeds of 9, 10, 11, and 12?

[Ronald Montesano]

RTJ at Cornell - beginning of career

The Senior is a tough one...He's like Shakespeare or Lope de Vega were playwrights..."do you mean to say, my good sir, that you've either read or seen them all?"

I think that his greens at Crag Burn in East Aurora have a ton of movement on them, despite a few benign examples. Crag Burn is a flat site, so there was need to punch up the putting surfaces a bit. In contrast, his course a few hours down the road at Bristol Harbo(u)r is located on a decently-undulated piece of property and some of the greens show severity.

His green work at Golden Horseshoe is not as crazed, but that's because the site is mighty cool as it is. Trent is a tough one and one would have to know his immense body of work to determine an electable candidate.

[Howard Riefs]

Nicklaus seems to have generally followed the pattern you suggest - with his green getting more mellow with time.   

I was under the opposite impression. Jack, after seeng Tom's work at Sebonack, designed more severe greens on some recent courses such as Harbor Shores and Dove Mountain.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Forsgate, a 1931 Banks course has very pronounced greens, a great mix of slope and contour.

At one time the 5th green was the largest single green in the country/world.

This course came late in Banks's career, yet there's nothing mild about the putting surfaces, they're laden with mounds, spines, plateaus, bowls and unusual configurations.

In addition, some of the greens have chasm like bunkering, defending at every direction.

It is a unique course, fun and challenging with some interesting templates (reverse Redan, short and a really great Biarritz)

Right off Exit 8A on the NJTPKE

[Scott Weersing]

What about Mike Strantz?

What would be his wildest greens?

And did he mellow with age with Monterey Penn. CC?

On the other end of spectrum, did Rees Jones ever build wild greens? I think his greens are very, very boring.

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