[Rich Goodale]

This is how I felt first standing on that tee.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2Je1CEPkUM

Rich

[Tom_Doak]

Rich:

One of the reasons the hole is so confusing is that the mowing lines and the bunkers blend together so well.  In the picture, from that eye level, you see all of the green but none of the fairway in front of it; the horizon of the fairway and the fairway bunker merge in perfectly with the turf just underneath the bunker short of the green, so that depth perception is extremely difficult.

Rich looking confused:

None of that is an accident, that's the kind of stuff you get with a bunch of golf-aware guys on site doing all of the shaping and finish work.

[Dan Kelly]

I'm still hoping to hear something about the 18th-hole gunch question I posed earlier.

Is it bad form to ask twice?

[Phil McDade]

I'm still hoping to hear something about the 18th-hole gunch question I posed earlier.

Is it bad form to ask twice?

No -- I wondered the same thing when Dan posted these; it seems out of place (or inconsistent with the rest of the course), but stress I haven't been there.

[RJ_Daley]

but of the one critical question I wanted to ask Tom Doak:

What's with all of that gunch short of the 18th green? It seems, to me ... out of place on the Red course -- a very punitive ending to a mostly accommodating course. I was wishing it were all short grass, with all of those wild undulations. ANY shot from short grass there would be a fun shot. Out of the gunch, not so much.

IIRC, one of our playing competitors landed a ball in the greenside slope of that native grass mound among the funky valley of sin like depression in front of the green.  It basically just seems to be like a grass bunker shot with a sand wedge.  I didn't play out of it or drop ball in it to see what it was like.  But, it didn't strike me as an incompatible feature to the rest of the design theme.  If anything, the aspect that seems a bit more out of character with the rest of the course and property in general is the much thicker weedy grassy area along the river along the right sides of 17-18.  The far right approach and right side around to rear side of 18 are more troublesome or penal and out of character with the rest of the design in my view.  Someone raised the idea of not going closer to the river bank in another thread, which would be down in what Don described as quick sand soft and unstable sand and muck, but also has the wetland thick weedy vegitation.  For my taste, while I see the allure to incorporate some feeling of the Dismal River into the design by locating a couple of holes parallel to the river and within sight or sense of the golfer as he plays the hole, I also wouldn't have felt the course routing or quality of the playing corridors would have suffered if the area adjacent to the river and weedy wetland was avoided completely to the extent you were far enough away to not even contemplate it.  On one hand the area lends to  wider diversity of terrain that the course utilizes, but on the other, it gets slightly away from the nature of the pure sand hills prairie golf holes.  The native grassy hummock among the hollows infront of 18 didn't strike my attention as out of place as much as the actual native weedy grassy river banks below the actual hole corridor down the right sides.

[John Kavanaugh]

The gunch bunker is around 30 yds from the green.  I look forward to the day Neal Reagan plays the course and comes to the 18th thinking he will putt his way onto the green once again from 150.  It's an excellent little twist on a guys mind knowing that he has to finally hit a shot into the air all the while with the river at the back of the green.  I don't think anything but a horrible shot will ever find the gunch and when it does it should determine the outcome of a match.  I like an 18th hole that is no easy bogey.

[Dan Kelly]

I don't think anything but a horrible shot will ever find the gunch...

Maybe a horrible shot after a good drive, but not after a mis-hit drive.

I still think short grass there would look more in character with the rest of the course -- and that anyone who ended up on that short grass would have no easy bogey ahead.

[Eric Smith]

I wonder what folks opinions would be if Tom and Co. had decided not to fill any of the ravine there in front of 18 green. Would leaving it just as they'd found it play more to the character of the course as a whole? I don't think it would.

For the most part, the approach into 18 has been frustrating for me and has lead to some fairly disappointing finishes. The fact that I keep tripping up there is one of the reasons I really like the hole and why I think having the hazards there works.

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't think anything but a horrible shot will ever find the gunch...

Maybe a horrible shot after a good drive, but not after a mis-hit drive.

I still think short grass there would look more in character with the rest of the course -- and that anyone who ended up on that short grass would have no easy bogey ahead.

Yours is not an uncommon opinion.  I do think you can putt from 150 in on every par 4 or 5 on the course with the exception of this hole.  Is it good that the 18th requires something different or is it bad?  Maybe it's horrible, I don't know.

It would be easy to criticize the concept of a course staying "in character", so I won't.  

One thing I do know is that maintenance man hours are very precious out there with 36 holes.  I would rather time be spent where people are likely to hit a ball where they haven't earned a penalty.

[Brandon Urban]

I agree with Eric. The front of that green looked way more like the junk to the right of the fairway than it does now. I may have a picture from the construction tour a few years ago... I'll see if I can find it.
I like the gunsch down there. It's different, but not crazy penal, especially mowed down like it was this year. Plenty of room left and between the green and gunsch to miss.

[Dan Moore]

Here is a pano of the 14th green from behind showing the approaches from various angles and fairway near the green.

[Tom_Doak]

Looking at all of the pictures, I'm reminded not just of all the holes I especially like (all four of the par-3s, plus Nos. 2, 7, 9, 13, 15, 17), but of the one critical question I wanted to ask Tom Doak:

What's with all of that gunch short of the 18th green? It seems, to me ... out of place on the Red course -- a very punitive ending to a mostly accommodating course. I was wishing it were all short grass, with all of those wild undulations. ANY shot from short grass there would be a fun shot. Out of the gunch, not so much.

Dan:

Sorry, sometimes I miss a question.

Originally, there was not only gunch on those banks, but a handful of cool shrubs and trees, and I wanted to leave them if I could.  It became clear after a bit of play that was too severe, so the last hour of my last visit [last year], we went out and looked over taking out all the shrubbery and cutting down some or most of the gunch.

It is hard to cut down ALL of the gunch because the banks are so steep there that I don't think they can mow it at fairway height unless we re-shape the area in front of the green and soften the bank.  Obviously, they don't want to do that unless I'm around, and I don't really want them to, either.  But I haven't had any time to get out there in 2014.  Maybe next year.

[Dan Moore]

With respect to the comments about the 7th here is a google earth showing a 270 yard drive up the 6th fairway from the back of the 7th tee.  John K nailed it-the carry from the back is 270.  That leaves 200 yards in and adds about 30 yards to the hole.  According to GE the carry from the horseshoe tee over the bunker on the line of the distant blow-out is about 205-210.  Once I figured that out the drive was easy and left a short iron or wedge in to the elevated green, not the most exciting approach shot on the course IMHO.



Pano shot from the 7th tee showing the area to the right Brandon was talking about.

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