[Tony_Muldoon]

If you look closely at the 1895 routing (which looks remarkably like the routing hanging on the wall in the starters hut),  the Redan tee is shown as being on the 14th green side of the wall and to the east of the 1877 tee.  It is not shown as being on the sea side of the 14th green.  From where it is shown on the routing there is no way to measure it and get 266 yards - unless you measure beyond the green all the way to the wall.  I checked the distances for holes 1, 2, 3, 16, 17 and 18 based on their location on the stick routing and they are all very close to the yardages from 1895.  The Redan at 266 yards stands out as being different from what's shown on the routing.  I'd ascribe the 266 yardage to an error on somebody's part in putting the write up together in 1895.

Thanks for this Bryan, looking again at this it struck me that there is a clear gap in the image between the bunker and the 'green' site. So maybe the green was near the wall and todfay's green came later?

[Jon Wiggett]

Pat

Changing the number on a card from a 4 to a 3 doesn't change what is in the ground.  Don't tell me you fall for that sucker punch as well? 

Jon

I don't know for certain, but here is my theory.  I think the green for Perfection was moved behind the present hillock when it was made into a par 4 for the 1895 redesign (replacing two par 3s between Pit and Redan).  This meant that the Redan hole could be lengthened to have the tee near Perfection's green.  This must have been quite a dangerous set-up with the tee shot playing between the 4th tee and the new 3rd green. Plus, the 1895 course would have had a lot of 240 to 300 yard holes (about 9 by my count).  So I think the club quickly pushed the tee forward and made Redan the yardage we have today.  Incidentally, I also think perhaps a few years later is when the double plateau Gate green was built. 

Ciao

Sounds reasonable.

[Sean_A]

Bryan

Not that a stick map is the ideal way to measure a hole, but out of interest, what was the yardage of 1895 Redan according to the map?

I am mindful that NB was always considered a short course and do wonder if there was some measurement cheating to reach the 6000 yard mark. 

Ciao

[Bill Brightly]

I just don't think you can go so far to say that a flat or downhill Redan is not a Redan IF these holes capture all of the other critical elements that are present at North Berwick.

Bill, I'm going that far. BECAUSE, The Redan Hole was so named after a military encampment. What military encampment would choose lower ground?

People can call a hole anything they want. But in the case of The Redan, imo, it's inaccurate for every one that plays downhill. Say a hole has a Redan green. I'm fine with that.

I realize it's picking nits, but after all, this site teaches others the most when there's a distinction beyond semantics. Similar to there being no such thing as a risk reward hole. Only risk reward shot strategies.

OK, let's pick nits. The hole was NOT designed to mimic a redan fortress. Rather, it was NAMED Redan by a retired military officer who said the hole reminded him of the fortress at Sevastopol. Presumably, this was due to the wood face on the front left bunker and perhaps also due to the angle created by this bunker and the right bunkers behind the kick plate.

In other words, he named the hole based upon what he saw while standing in front of the green, not the tee.

With all due respect, YOU do not get to decide what makes a Redan. The hole was on the ground before it was named. The are many distinctive features to the hole at North Berwick:

1. A right-to-left angled green
2. Downhill green where the ball runs well to the back
3. Kickplate on the right to help the ball feed left to the putting surface
4. Very firm turf which truly encourages a running approach from the right
5. Significant wind which adds to the challenge of picking a proper line from the tee and landing the ball where needed
6. A very deep and menacing front bunker that angles right to left with the green
7. Severe bunkering behind the kickplate if you miss too far right  
8. Significant mounding 30 yards short of the hole with bunkers cut into the bottom of the mounding.

This last feature makes the hole effectively play uphill, but there is probably little or no elevation change from tee to green. Macdonald observed ALL of this when he decided to borrow features from NB when constructing his courses.

Having now played NB and NGLA, there is no doubt in my mind that what Macdonald built at National is a great Redan hole. (And I am one who previously took points off NGLA's because it does not play uphill!) I still have problems with a downhill hole like Sleepy Hollow's but you must admit that most of the other critical features are present.

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan

Not that a stick map is the ideal way to measure a hole, but out of interest, what was the yardage of 1895 Redan according to the map?

I am mindful that NB was always considered a short course and do wonder if there was some measurement cheating to reach the 6000 yard mark. 

Ciao

The measurement from the stick routing is obviously less than ideal, but it is around 250 yards.  This is generously measuring to the back of the current green from almost the edge of the 14th green.  Perhaps they got an extra 16 yards walking up and down the fronting ridge and swale.  What is puzzling is why they would put a tee not 20 yards from the wall.  Perhaps, given some of the other quirk, asking players to hit over a wall just 20 yards in front of them isn't so strange.  I also wonder on the stick routing whether the dot at the end of the line was to indicate the centre of the green.  Modern yardage books in Scotland all measure to the front of the green.  I wonder when that practice started? 

[Sean_A]

Bryan

Thanks.  I can buy a 16 yard error and I don't think it seriously changes the hole. I strongly suspect the flat bellies needed a tailwind to aid them in reaching the green anyway and that many could not reach the green on most days.  Regardless, I think the longer Redan wasn't used for very long because if it was, why didn't Hutchinson say it was a 2 shotter in his 1897 book?  I am inclined to believe an authority like Hutchinson. 

For a championship event (say for Open qualifying), it would be interesting if there was a 250ish tee. 

I am also quite taken with the par three which was lost when Perfection as a 4 was created.  Apparently, the next tee after Pit was near the beach...

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Bryan

Not that a stick map is the ideal way to measure a hole, but out of interest, what was the yardage of 1895 Redan according to the map?

I am mindful that NB was always considered a short course and do wonder if there was some measurement cheating to reach the 6000 yard mark. 

Ciao

The measurement from the stick routing is obviously less than ideal, but it is around 250 yards.  This is generously measuring to the back of the current green from almost the edge of the 14th green.  Perhaps they got an extra 16 yards walking up and down the fronting ridge and swale.  What is puzzling is why they would put a tee not 20 yards from the wall.  Perhaps, given some of the other quirk, asking players to hit over a wall just 20 yards in front of them isn't so strange.  I also wonder on the stick routing whether the dot at the end of the line was to indicate the centre of the green.  Modern yardage books in Scotland all measure to the front of the green.  I wonder when that practice started? 

A stick routing is always drawn to the centre of the green, the same way a hole is measured on the ground. I don't believe that will have ever been different.

Unless there was a scale on that 1895 map, I'd say a tolerance of about 5 or 6% is pretty small and therefore am more inclined to believe a hard yardage written (266 yards) than that the map is entirely accurate and to scale. It was clear the tee was somewhere behind the wall which makes it clearer the hole played longer in 1895.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Weren't holes measured using chains/ropes on the ground?   As a 2 shotter I think the play would be further right than going direct,making it a dogleg. Then they have to measure across two dunes. Easy to pick up a few yards.

[Wayne_Kozun]

When did the concept of setting a par for each hole become commonplace?  Wasn't that around 1900?

[Adam Lawrence]

Par as we know it evolved over a period of time; I'm not sure when the first appearance of the term is, but for sure it wasn't in common usage in the late nineteenth century. But I don't think that's the point really - whether you refer to a hole by par, bogey or saying it was a 'one-shot' or a 'two-shot' hole is not important.

[DMoriarty]

Bryan and Sean,

Saying that "the measurement from the stick routing is obviously less than ideal" is understating things, I think.  The stick routing isn't to scale, and the 14th green doesn't seem to be quite where it was supposed to be.   I guess it depends on one's perspective, but when I looked at the stick routing I focused on fact that the 15th appears to started from just a bit west of wall, which would have made the hole somewhere in the range of about 205-225 yards. 

Where did the 266 yard number come from anyway?   I know it is in the Golf Book of East Lothian (1896), but is this the only reference upon which we are relying?   If so, then it is worth noting that the book also reprints an April 1995 article in Golf which describes the changes, and notes that, "The fifteenth ('Redan') and last three holes remain as before."

So we have a number of references indicating that  the distance in 1895 was "as before." According to one of these articles, "as before" was 230 yards. 

Given that the 1877 routing has the hole at 210 years even though the tee is east of the fence, my guess is the 230 yard figure is a bit exaggerated.  Still, though, the 230 yard figure seems to fit the 1895 stick routing much better than 266 yards or even 250 yards. 

As I learn more, I am more inclined to agree with Bryan's suggestion that the 266 yard reference was probably a mistake. 

[DMoriarty]

All that said, and regardless of the specific distance, it is very interesting that in 1895 (and apparently for some time before) the tee for the Redan hole may have been west of the wall.  That would have made for a very long one shot hole for the pre-Haskell era, even if the distance was only 210 or 220 yards.

Does anyone have a date for when the tee was definitely moved back to the east side of the wall?   

I'll bet Phil Young and his artist friend really hope it was sometime before 1899.

[Rich Goodale]

Bryan

Not that a stick map is the ideal way to measure a hole, but out of interest, what was the yardage of 1895 Redan according to the map?

I am mindful that NB was always considered a short course and do wonder if there was some measurement cheating to reach the 6000 yard mark.  

Ciao

Modern yardage books in Scotland all measure to the front of the green.  I wonder when that practice started?  

Bryan

This is not true.  Some do, but most do not.  I will agree that there is a trend to show distances to the front, but that is very recent and due to the fact that more and more players use range finding devices and more and more clubs offer daily pin position charts of some kind.

Rich

[Bryan Izatt]

Adam,

The "architect" of the day must have had some idea of how they thought the hole would play - presumably for the membership.  Whether most could play it in one shot or two depending on wind and weather I would think that they must have thought of it.  Or, is how long and how a hole plays completely irrelevant in match play.


Rich,

Thanks for the clarification.  Clearly I've been hanging out at too many clubs that were early adopters of the front edge measurement. 


David,

I think that 230 seems plausible on the ground there, although 210 seems more realistic, regardless of which side of the wall we talk about.  Funny that the 1877 map shows the hole playing over the short bunkers, while the 1895 map shows the hole playing to the left of the the short bunkers, as the hole currently does. 

It occurs to me that if most would have trouble reaching the green at 210, 230 or 266 yards, then the hole has some characteristics of a Biarritz.  Hitting a driver and carrying the short bunkers would require a carry of say 170 yards.  Perhaps players tried to land the drive on the down slope of the fronting swale and have the ball run up on to the green.  I imagine that the turf would have generally been firm and fast enough to run through the swale.  And, I think the hole generally plays down wind.

[DMoriarty]

I just stumbled across an interesting tidbit that was news to me . . .  The famous "Redan" bunker on the Redan hole was not the "Redan" bunker at all, but was actually named  "The Lamb" bunker.  The actual "Redan" bunker was not the green side bunker, but rather the cross bunker 50 yards short of the Redan green, the one with the walking path through the middle.

To explain, in the Jan. 19, 1900 edition of Golf Illustrated, Hutchinson had described the Redan and the "Redan bunker" as part of his "Famous Bunkers" series.   In the next edition (Jan. 26, 1900) Edward J.L. Blyth (a famous North Berwick Amateur who I believe was involved in documenting the course and changes over the years) wrote to set Hutchinson straight.  I've copied the entire letter because it contains other interesting tidbits as well:

  Sir,—Mr. Hutchinson's description of the bunker to the left in your illustration of the Redan green, North Berwick, is quite correct except that its name is not "Redan," but rejoices in the much milder and non-military name of "The Lamb ;" so called long ago, some say because it faces the Lamb Island in the Forth, others because it is the frequent refuge from both storm and sunshine, of sheep and lambs.
   The "Redan" bunker is about fifty yards due west, and must be played over for a really good shot to the green, the carry being about 130 to 150 yards according to site of tee ; it is in many parts a much more difficult bunker to get "houkit cot" of than the Redan. Mr. Hutchinson will, no doubt, recollect it when I say it is divided by a footpath through it and has a barbed wire on top of its steep bank. This error in nomenclature was so common that last year the New Club, North Berwick, had a plan produced from actual survey of the links showing all bunkers and their names, many being christened for the first time, and which can be had from the Secretary for one shilling. Another reason was to facilitate description of a game; for instance, in going from third to fourth hole, it is possible to get into seveu bunkers, and without names it was difficult to describe one's play.
   The "Shipka Pass " mentioned by Mr. Hutchinson no longer exists, the great widening of the course from fourth to fifth hole in 1894 having done away with it, and though of course its site exists the name is no longer used. That name was given soon after the first extension of the green to eighteen holes in the early seventies by an excellent, keen golfer, the late Mr. David Croall, whom I think you must have known.
   I think it would be useful were names given to all bunkers on every green, and also to other prominent features, such as the "Horse" at North Berwick to which Mr. Hutchinson refers.
   Many old caddies and players at North Berwick used to make the same mistake as to the "Lamb " and "Redan," which Mr. Hutchinson has fallen into, and to prevent such in the future, boy caddies at North Berwick before passing from second to first class, are expected to pass an examination as to the names of all bunkers.
   I am, Sir, etc.,
EDWARD L. J. BLYTH.

[DMoriarty]

The above letter by Blythe is also interesting because it helps us locate the tee(s) as they existed in 1900.  

According to Blyth, the carry over the "Redan" bunker (the bunker well short of the green divided by the footpath) was "about 130 to 150 yards according to site of tee."  On the current line of play, it is about 135 yards from the wall to a a point safely over the bunkers, so working backwards this would put the tee either just east of the wall (130 yards) or a bit west of the wall (150 yards) and would make the hole play around 200-220 yards.  

The description suggests that there was a teeing area west of the wall in 1900.

___________________________

Blythe references "a plan produced from actual survey of the links showing all bunkers and their names, many being christened for the first time."  Do any copies of this plan plan still exist?  
_________________________

Bryan, regarding the angle of play, I think the 1895 stick diagram actually shows multiple bunkers near the line of play.  One crescent shaped bunker is clearly to the right of play, but there is also a bunker (I think Blythe's "Redan" bunker) more in the line of the play  I'd agree, though that the angle looks slightly different in that the 1895 line plays over the left of this bunker whereas the 1877 line is over the middle.  I don't put too much credence in the exact angle on these stick drawings though.

[DMoriarty]

For the sake of completeness, here is the image in which Hutchinson misidentifies the Redan bunker.



While in his description of the hole he misidentifies the name of the bunker, I think Hutchinson did touch on the key strategic principle :   

"The Redan is a deep, steep-faced bunker close to the green, but it is of no great length or breadth. The driven ball may go nicely to the right of it and curl round so as to lie on the green without crossing the great escarpment of the fortification at all."

[Tony_Muldoon]

David that is fascinating thank you.


Have you played the hole, I can assure the right side of the green looks nothing like that now.  It does tend to suggest overall it was a narrower target and perhaps therefore was designed to be played as a shorter second shot?

Does this change what CBM may have seen in the hole?  When was he studying the original holes?

[Bill Brightly]

A couple more photos looking back at the green

[DMoriarty]

Bill, you don't happen to have any photos from a similar angle to the Golf Illustrated photo above, do you?
__________________________
Tony, unfortunately I haven't had the pleasure.  The right side looks pretty rough in that image, but I don't know what (if anything) that suggests about how the original length.

I am not sure I follow you regarding your questions about what CBM might have seen.  He did place a bunker in the same location at NGLA, and he did describe the hole playing characteristics similarly to the way Hutchinson described it in 1900.  

It is amazing, though, that such a nasty bunker would be overlooked in the various descriptions. Perhaps the hole had so many other dastardly features that this particular nasty bunker wasn't worth mentioning in comparison.
____________________________________________________________
Compare the circa 1899 image of the green (above) with the painting which we have been told was done by Tillinghast in 1899. Uh oh . . . what happened to the giant and nasty bunker right of the green?  Tillinghast must have been dreaming of changes yet to come . . .  

[Bill Brightly]

Bill, you don't happen to have any photos from a similar angle to the Golf Illustrated photo above, do you?

No, David. After seeing your photo I went back to look and the one I just posted above is the closest.

[DMoriarty]

Thanks anyway.  I thought that might be what you had in mind with the recently posted photos.

The reason I ask is that there doesn't seem to be much of a "kick plate" in the old photo, and I am wondering of it is not just visible from that angle, or whether it was perhaps something that was built up at some later date. 

________________________________________________________


Here is the photo from Hutchinson's British Golf Links (1897) showing the teeing area in front of (east of) the wall.  I suppose it is possible there was another teeing area behind the wall as well.   



(Notice the teeing area doesn't appear to bear any resemblance to the stylized tee box shown in the supposed 1899 sketch.)

[Sean_A]

David

I see a distinctive slope on the front right side of the green (actually, the extreme right side near the bunker may be some sort of light rough) toward the sea.  The slope in modern photos are remarkably similar.  What is very different other than the size of the right hand bunker is the narrow neck leading to the green.  It could be an angle issue (probably is), but jeepers it looks narrow.

Ciao

[Bryan Izatt]

David,

Re Lamb bunker and the Redan bunker and the "plan" showing all the bunkers and their names, perhaps it is the plan that hangs in the starters hut at NB.  Here is detail from that "plan" for the area of the Redan hole.  The bunkers are indeed named as per the letter.  This "plan" shows a routing that mirrors the 1895 stick routing posted above.  It lists the Redan hole as 187 yards.

[Bill Brightly]

David,

Here are a few more that might show you what you are looking for:

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()