[DMoriarty]

Hi Sean, I have a few questions and comments about your post.

 I don't think others had the same "philosophy" in the ground in America, and I am unsure that anyone anywhere had articulated the philosophy quite like CBM.  And his ideas went well beyond copying features from a few famous holes.

Would it have happened anyway? It is easy to say that it would have happened in America anyway, but that doesn't change the fact that it was CBM who did it.  And just who are these "preachers" who were on their way to do what CBM had done?  And why hadn't they shown up earlier?  Did they have the ears of the most powerful men in the country like CBM did?   Did they have the connections and reputation in the US and GB to pull it off?  Look at MacKenzie's statements.  He seems to think that CBM laid the groundwork and made it possible for people like AM to thrive.  How do you know these "preachers" would have been welcome if CBM hadn't laid the groundwork? How so you know they would have even bothered?

Yes, my comments were limited to America. I was careful to limit my comments to America, because I can speak to what happened in America with some limited degree of knowledge.  It wouldn't surprise me if CBM had an influence overseas, given the publicity and rave reviews by the leading commentators, but I just don't want to make any claims I cannot currently back up.

And while America wasn't in a literal bubble,  there was a literal Ocean between here and there, and the different culture.  I think you understate the differences between golf in America and golf overseas, and the barriers between the two.  The golfing culture over there certainly hadn't embraced American golf (CBM would help change this too.). They two golfing cultures werent lumped together then so I don't think it makes sense to lump them together now.

You describe CBM as being in the back end of the first wave, and standing on  high shoulders.  This is confusing to me.   If you mean Old Tom then I agree CBM  was standing on shoulders, but if you mean designers that were more his contemporaries, then i am curious to hear your explanation.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark

Others already had the "same philosophy" in the ground unless so called improvements are considered a philosophy.  

Sean,

What courses prior to NGLA manifested the "same philosophy" ?

I can buy the part of CBM bringing golf to the US, but I wonder if wasn't going to happen anyway when the Brits hit the road.  In other words, it may be the case that CBM was a middle man preaching the word before the preachers went on tour.  

What courses by the "preachers who went on tour" manifest those qualities or "same philosophy" ?

Other than the bit about Maxwell, I am a bit dubious about the answers given thus far.  The main push seems to be "in America" as if the US was a bubble in the business.  I tend to look at architecture from a global perspective because ideas were communicated across continents.  

What courses in Europe, Asia and South America support your premise ?

Those who cared to know were in the know.  That said, there can be no doubt that CBM assembled 18 holes based on principles, some of which he may have originated and that he was in the front wave if at the back end of that wave.  

In other words, CBM had some incredibly high shoulders to stand on, templates or no (and this assumes that the template push was terribly influential which I am not sure about).  

If you're not sure about it perhaps you should study the body of work by Macdonald, Raynor and Banks.
Work that remains relevant a century later

Ciao  

[Rich Goodale]

I'm curious as to whether CBM ever influenced (or even met) Donald Ross, whose work in the USA began in the early 1900's and whose portfolio of significantly good courses still stands as probably the greatest collection of any architect of any time.

[DMoriarty]

Rich. I don't know if they ever met.  As for potential influence, perhaps one could examine his earliest courses and compare them to courses built as things started to change here.

I do recall reading that Ross was one of the many who pilgrimaged back across to study the great courses after CBM had made that the fashionable thing to do, but this struck me as odd given that he was from there.  I don't remember where I read that but will try to find it next week (out of town this weekend.)

[Rich Goodale]

David

I don't think that Ross traveled that much overseas, and when he did it was more for nostalgic reasons than a GCA pilgrimage.  He played in the 1910 Open at St. Andrews, finishing in a tie for 8th, behind Braid, Herd, Duncan, Ray and others, but ahead of Taylor, Vardon, Ball, Massy, C. Hutchinson, Auchterlonie, Park, Jr. and Sayers.  He also visited Dornoch in 1921 when he helped Sutherland and Taylor (I think) re-design the 1st and 2nd to deal with the modern ball.  Overall, his early 20th century courses were mostly redesigned (by him) in the 1910-25 period, again due to the realities of the modern ball.

I would speculate that CBM's influence was based partly on his bluster and self-promotion, as well as the fact that he built NGLA at the time when it was becoming obvious that the old courses (in the States and in GBI) were inadequate given the new technology.

Even if they did happen to meet (given that DJR finished in the top 10 at 4 of the 6 US Opens in the 1902-1907 period, their meeting was likely),  I doubt he and Ross would have gotten along.

Rich

[Niall C]

Rich

Re Ross and Dornoch, I seem to recall he went "home" on holiday on several occasions and no doubt had the opportunity to catch up on what was going on. Before he emigrated to the US however he played with Taylor on a number of occasions as Taylor was a great fan of Dornoch. Taylor was renowned as a great pitcher and that showed in his architecture with a lot of his designs requiring a pitch to get to the hole. I wonder if Dornoch was like that at that time or simply became that (IMO) at a later date with the plateau greens etc., and if so whether Taylor and of course Sutherland had a bearing on Ross's similar style ? I'm of course shooting from the hip having never played a Ross course in my life other than whatever changes he made to Dornoch. My comments are based on what I've seen of Ross courses either on TV on sites like this. 

Feel free to shoot me down.

Niall

[Peter Pallotta]

David - you wrote in your last post to me: "But with NGLA (and with the incredible publicity it received)  America learned what golf architecture could be."

I agree. That role can't be overstated -- and it is a role I'd describe as a promoter and popularizer, perhaps even as a consciousness-raiser. I don't want to dimimnish CBM or his impact at all, but since this is a discussion board I'll point out a book like John Low's "Concerning Golf" from the early 1900s, and suggest that the philosophies and principles of modern strategic architecture were 'already in the air' back then, at least amongst the small inside club of early 20th century architects/afficiandos.

Peter 

[Niall C]

IIRC the Alwoodley course opened in 1907, while the design competition was in 1914.  Surely Mackenzie must be regarded as an accomplished architect prior to 1914. 

Bill

MacKenzie did indeed have an established reputation as a gca well before 1914 with his name well known in the UK golfing press. Don't have the info directly to hand but by the time of the Country Life comp he also had had a number of articles published as well.

What's always puzzled me about the statement that the Country Life comp, or rather the hole design being included within the Lido design, giving him a springboard into the US was that in 1914 war erupted in Europe and no one was giving much of a thought about gca. I can't imagine it gave that much of a boost to his design career even locally, given it would be 4 long years before people turned their thoughts back to golf and the comp would have been long forgotten. By the time MacKenzie did make it to the US, some 11-12 years later, he had not only worked throughout the UK and Ireland, but had become consulting architect to the R&A and had published Golf Architecture. Quite a calling card I'd have thought. We also know one of the first things he did on arrival was to meet with William Beers the Editor of Golf Illustrated US to show him photos of his UK projects. That suggests that he managed to establish himself through his own efforts and reputation gained in the UK.

So why the credit to CBM ? Perhaps MacKenzie was merely flattering a friend ?

Niall

[Phil McDade]

David:

Interesting discussion; I tend to side with your arguments, and my (admittedly limited) reading of American golf architecture is that CBM radically changed the nature of golf architecture and design in America.

I'm curious about Herbert Leeds' role in all of this. He did work very early in American golf architectural history that is widely considered good (Kebo Valley) to great (Myopia: http://web.archive.org/web/20060310225950/http://www.golfclubatlas.com/myopiahunt1.html). The GCA article -- long excised from this site, but the internet is a wonderful thing -- said Leeds specifically went to Shinnecock to study its green sites in preparing to overhaul and expand the rudimentary 9 holes at Myopia.

Did the two ever meet? You can certainly see some parallels in the work Leeds did at Myopia and NGLA -- deep bunkers directly across the line of play, blind tee shots and approaches to greens, strategic options and routes to attack a hole.

How would you assess Leeds' role in early golf architectural history vis-a-vis CBM? More limited, yes, but Myopia's influence wasn't negligible, I'd suggest.

[BCrosby]

There's not much question that John Low was the first to articulate the basic principles of strategic golf course design. He was a pivotal figure in the re-thinking of golf architecture that took place in the first years of the last century. Beginning in 1901 he set out the basic ideas that, to one degree or another, were followed by the great architects of the Golden Age. He was close friends with Colt, Alison, Darwin and others. He knew Travis, Leeds, Tillie and CBM (most of whom he met during the1903 OCGS tour of the US). Low is mentioned in MacK's S of StA as the guy that first figured it out. MacK was right.

Low's changes to TOC circa 1900 and the changes a few years later at Woking were viewed at the time as revolutionary. Both raised firestorms. But Low did not design any new golf courses. I suspect his modern obscurity is due largely to that fact. But if you dig back through old issues of Golf Illustrated and other publications of the era, his importance in exchanges about architecture (as well as rules and the Haskell) is hard to miss.

Bob

 

[DMoriarty]

Low was certainly an important figure in the development of strategic golf, and he seems to have been a significant influence on CBM's thinking.  I don't remember the details (and they aren't accessible this weekend) but as I recall CBM wrote about consulting Low about the creation of NGLA, and he definitely referred to Low's ideas when explaining his own. There was certainly an overlap between their views.  It'd be interesting to try and detail the extent of the overlap.  I'm trying to think back to certain of Low's ideas, and I believe there may have been some subtle differences (or at least some caveats) but nothing I could expand upon now.

As for Leeds, he was certainly an important figure as well.  Many considered Myopia and his 9 hole course to be among the rare bright spots in America.   But it was still considered to be  lacking when compared to the best overseas, and to NGLA.  Also keep  in mind that Myopia was always a work in progress, and it is difficult to sort out the reasons for the changes. Significant changes were made, though, after CBM and Hutchinson visited the course in 1910(?) and Hutchinson criticized the course.  (The criticism also sparked a backlash aimed at Hutchinson and NGLA.  This was around the time of the Schenectady putter fiasco, and there was a lot of hostility directed overseas and at CBM.)

[Bill_McBride]

IIRC the Alwoodley course opened in 1907, while the design competition was in 1914.  Surely Mackenzie must be regarded as an accomplished architect prior to 1914. 

Bill

MacKenzie did indeed have an established reputation as a gca well before 1914 with his name well known in the UK golfing press. Don't have the info directly to hand but by the time of the Country Life comp he also had had a number of articles published as well.

What's always puzzled me about the statement that the Country Life comp, or rather the hole design being included within the Lido design, giving him a springboard into the US was that in 1914 war erupted in Europe and no one was giving much of a thought about gca. I can't imagine it gave that much of a boost to his design career even locally, given it would be 4 long years before people turned their thoughts back to golf and the comp would have been long forgotten. By the time MacKenzie did make it to the US, some 11-12 years later, he had not only worked throughout the UK and Ireland, but had become consulting architect to the R&A and had published Golf Architecture. Quite a calling card I'd have thought. We also know one of the first things he did on arrival was to meet with William Beers the Editor of Golf Illustrated US to show him photos of his UK projects. That suggests that he managed to establish himself through his own efforts and reputation gained in the UK.

So why the credit to CBM ? Perhaps MacKenzie was merely flattering a friend ?

Niall

I wonder if the Mackenzie timeline guys -- especially Tully! -- know how Mackenzie won the commission to design the Meadow Club.  That was his first US project.   

[Ian Andrew]

One of the aspects that are not addressed very much here is the need to set yourself apart from your peers. Once you’ve established who your competition is, you also have decent understanding of what you need to do differently. From that point the next stage is to move through all the options until you find something you feel connected to, or something that fits the situation. Obviously we all set out to have our own unique spin on things, but often influences come through really clearly when you know that they exist.

The earliest architects lacked for great examples, but they also benefitted from having so few courses to be compared against. In today’s day and age it’s tough for an architect to create something singularly unique. Unfortunately when they do, it’s almost immediately copied and given enough copies loses its appeal. At best, we generally find something that is “us.” and hope that connections to influences are not too obvious.

One interesting option you sometimes find is when a golden age giant has not practiced in the area where you are working, but their ideas or ideals seem to be a perfect fit on a project. It allows you to pull at this particular influence for this project. 


So I come back to your question, does he have the influence?

I would argue that he is without peer on a massive site with strong undulation. He is simply the best ever at working with scale. When given something similar, I immediately thought of his ideas and techniques before I thought about any other architect.


Through my extensive travels, only one or two other architects have shaped my design philosophy as much as CBM.

[Sean_A]

Ian

Thank you.  Its nice to get into specifics not involving templates (which I don't think is a great example of influence).  Since you are able to answer the question because you live and breathe, can you give me an instance of when you employed a CBM idea? 

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ian

Thank you.  Its nice to get into specifics not involving templates (which I don't think is a great example of influence).  Since you are able to answer the question because you live and breathe, can you give me an instance of when you employed a CBM idea? 


Old Macdonald might be a good general start !

[DMoriarty]

Actually Sean, many of the posts here haven't really been focused on templates.

Any chance you will address some of the questions to you, above?  Thanks.

[Ian Andrew]

Ian

Thank you.  Its nice to get into specifics not involving templates (which I don't think is a great example of influence).  Since you are able to answer the question because you live and breathe, can you give me an instance of when you employed a CBM idea? 


Old Macdonald might be a good general start !

I didn't design that one Pat     

[Ian Andrew]

Ian

Thank you.  Its nice to get into specifics not involving templates (which I don't think is a great example of influence).  Since you are able to answer the question because you live and breathe, can you give me an instance of when you employed a CBM idea? 

Ciao

Quite a few years back I looked at a property that had only one of two trees and was very flat.
How the hell do you make that interesting right?

It was all about making features large enough, wide enough and expansive enough to "fill" the open space.
Whatever you build must compete with the scale of the surroundings.

I got really interested in how far features could intrude into extremely wide fairways and still develop strategy.

I also looked at the work of Mike Strantz and AW Tillinghast for exaggerated swings in fairway contours for the same reason.
You want more than one trick up your sleeve before you start out

Unfortunately, it never did come to fruition.

[Tom_Doak]

I wonder if the Mackenzie timeline guys -- especially Tully! -- know how Mackenzie won the commission to design the Meadow Club.  That was his first US project.   

I believe that Robert Hunter had already been contracted to design The Meadow Club, and when MacKenzie came to visit him, they agreed to partner on it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ian

Thank you.  Its nice to get into specifics not involving templates (which I don't think is a great example of influence).  Since you are able to answer the question because you live and breathe, can you give me an instance of when you employed a CBM idea? 


Old Macdonald might be a good general start !

I didn't design that one Pat     

Ian,

That's why I used the word "general" 

[Bill_McBride]

I wonder if the Mackenzie timeline guys -- especially Tully! -- know how Mackenzie won the commission to design the Meadow Club.  That was his first US project.   

I believe that Robert Hunter had already been contracted to design The Meadow Club, and when MacKenzie came to visit him, they agreed to partner on it.

But I guess the question is, how did Mackenzie get invited to do any work in America?  I'd love to see some writing on this. I guess I could get out The Spirit... again.  

What was Hunter's resume at that point?

[Tom_Doak]

I wonder if the Mackenzie timeline guys -- especially Tully! -- know how Mackenzie won the commission to design the Meadow Club.  That was his first US project.   

I believe that Robert Hunter had already been contracted to design The Meadow Club, and when MacKenzie came to visit him, they agreed to partner on it.

But I guess the question is, how did Mackenzie get invited to do any work in America?  I'd love to see some writing on this. I guess I could get out The Spirit... again.  

What was Hunter's resume at that point?

I'm not sure Robert Hunter had done any design work at that point.  He'd been writing his book THE LINKS, and met a lot of architects over several years.  But, he was an independently wealthy guy, and probably just knew whoever was the wealthy guy who wanted to develop The Meadow Club.  [I have never read a club history for Meadow.]

MacKenzie was invited by Hunter to come to California when the two met in the UK, and took him up on it in 1925.  En route, he stopped in to visit Perry Maxwell [whom he had also met in the UK] in Oklahoma City, and signed him up as a partner on midwestern projects ... and just like that he had two separate businesses in America!

[Bill_McBride]

I wonder if the Mackenzie timeline guys -- especially Tully! -- know how Mackenzie won the commission to design the Meadow Club.  That was his first US project.   

I believe that Robert Hunter had already been contracted to design The Meadow Club, and when MacKenzie came to visit him, they agreed to partner on it.

But I guess the question is, how did Mackenzie get invited to do any work in America?  I'd love to see some writing on this. I guess I could get out The Spirit... again.  

What was Hunter's resume at that point?

I'm not sure Robert Hunter had done any design work at that point.  He'd been writing his book THE LINKS, and met a lot of architects over several years.  But, he was an independently wealthy guy, and probably just knew whoever was the wealthy guy who wanted to develop The Meadow Club.  [I have never read a club history for Meadow.]

MacKenzie was invited by Hunter to come to California when the two met in the UK, and took him up on it in 1925.  En route, he stopped in to visit Perry Maxwell [whom he had also met in the UK] in Oklahoma City, and signed him up as a partner on midwestern projects ... and just like that he had two separate businesses in America!

Thanks.  Must have been an exciting time!   Social contacts were everything (CBM, Tilly, Hunter, Thomas), where in the UK Braid and Old Tom were among the leading architects. 

[DMoriarty]

Sean,

In this and other past threads, you have been "dubious" about the extent of CBM's influence (if any) over the development of golf course architecture.  I was hoping you could set out your thoughts on this more fully, and especially expand and explain on your comments in post 23. Not just vague stuff about "preachers" or golf architecture as a global phenomenon, but specifics.

Also Sean, I am curious as to whether you have yet played NGLA?   The reason I ask is because I think that seeing the course helps one understand how influential it was, especially if one compares it to what else existed at the time.

Thanks.  

[Rich Goodale]

Sean,

In this and other past threads, you have been "dubious" about the extent of CBM's influence (if any) over the development of golf course architecture.  I was hoping you could set out your thoughts on this more fully, and especially expand and explain on your comments in post 23. Not just vague stuff about "preachers" or golf architecture as a global phenomenon, but specifics.

Also Sean, I am curious as to whether you have yet played NGLA?   The reason I ask is because I think that seeing the course helps one understand how influential it was, especially if one compares it to what else existed at the time.

Thanks.  

David

If NGLA was so "influential" why did it never host a US Open?

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