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Sean_A

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The Influence of CBM
« on: August 27, 2014, 07:11:13 PM »
I was recently laughed out loud at (lola?) concerning my comments about CBM.  There was a time many years ago when it seemed like everyday someone was saying Augusta was built on the principles of TOC.  Not quite seeing the similarities between the two, I asked how are the two similar.  The responses were very informative and much appreciated.  With the same spirit of wanting to learn something, I ask how was CBM influential?  I look at courses for the last 100 years and can see how Colt was influential (the use of plateau greens is one element I think Colt popularized) just by how courses look.  These days, I think I can see how Dr Mac was influential.  I do, however, fail to see how CBM was influential, at least to the degree of the other two. Regardless, are there any principles, ideas, or concepts which CBM practiced that can be clearly seen in the work after the death of himself, Banks and Raynor?    

Ciao
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 12:20:30 PM by Sean_A »
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Peter Pallotta

Re: The Influence of CBM
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2014, 07:43:58 PM »
Sean - you show David M (the one laughing) great respect by starting this thread. Not that he may not be absolutely right about CBM having had a significant influence; it's that, like you, I can't easily identify/quantify/qualify that influence, other than acknowledging CBM as the dominant early voice in propagating the belief that great golf course architecture was important, and that it was based on sound (and repeatable) principles.

But I should recuse myself from this discussion, because I'm not at all sure whether any architect really can/does influence any other -- and certainly not in the sense that, say, Tolkien and Lord of the Rings influenced several generations of fiction writers and countless hundreds of fantasy books. All those writers began with the exact same medium, i.e. a blank piece of paper, and with the exact same restrictions, i.e. none whatsoever. In gca, the various kinds of sites available to and the various kinds of restrictions placed on an architect make that kind of influence impossible.

Indeed, in a very real sense, I don't even believe that, say, Dr. Mackenzie "influenced" Tom D. The latter has studied the former's works (along with the works of many other older gcas), and has a great appreciation for that work (and for that of several other great gcas, past and present). But I'm very hard pressed to believe in (or to even understand a) one-to-one "correspondence" between Tom's understanding of Mac's work (or that of any other single architect) and his own design efforts, e.g. his hard-won solutions to a routing puzzle on any given site.

Also -- and feel free to ignore this as the thought of an inexperienced ignoramus -- with each passing year I find myself more and more convinced that we wildly overstate the differences between the work of our current crop of architects when it comes to fundamental principles; in truth, they all tend to create/design within the same, relatively narrow bandwidth. (Much like the writer-director of the latest teen romantic comedy is following almost exactly the same essential narrative construct and drama-comedy producing situations as Woody Allen did in his best and most admired work; they both understand and utilize the same principles.) The main differences in the work of current gcas, like that between Woody Allen and a hack, is in matters of tastes and temperaments -- important yes, and we should all feel free to gravitate and even promote the work of those architects whose taste and temperaments most align with our own, but not easily or usefully argued about objectively.  
« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 08:10:43 PM by PPallotta »

Tyler Kearns

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Re: The Influence of CBM
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2014, 08:11:46 PM »
Sean,

CB Macdonald's influence on golf course architecture is not in style, but substance.  His design at NGLA set the standard for strategic design in North America, using width to provide varied angles of attack and varied hazard placement to test a wide range of players in all types of wind.  Further, NGLA was influential in incorporating multiple tees to limit carries and provide better angles from the tee, allowing a wider range of golfers to enjoy the experience.

TK

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Influence of CBM
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2014, 08:25:37 PM »
Sean,

CB Macdonald's influence on golf course architecture is not in style, but substance.  His design at NGLA set the standard for strategic design in North America, using width to provide varied angles of attack and varied hazard placement to test a wide range of players in all types of wind.  Further, NGLA was influential in incorporating multiple tees to limit carries and provide better angles from the tee, allowing a wider range of golfers to enjoy the experience.

TK

Tyler - like David, you may be right, but to keep it simple: which architects -- either from/working in GB&I or America -- do you think CBM influenced (in whatever way you understand the term):

Did he influence Ross? Colt? Fowler? Behr? Mackenzie? Watson? Tillinghast? Crump? Fownes? As insiders and working professionals and rough contemporaries of CBM, did any/all of them need CBM to explain and/or rationalize the use of width and varied angles of attack and varied hazard placements?
« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 08:27:52 PM by PPallotta »

Mark Bourgeois

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Re: The Influence of CBM
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2014, 08:29:01 PM »
In a reductionist sense (which misses a huge forest for a few trees) and for starters: the Eden might not have become the world's most-copied hole and we might not have Cape holes. Following on that, the idea of "borrowing" from holes in the UK, just the intellectual concept of those courses serving as wellsprings of imagination, might be far less common.

Within the sphere of "architecture" his influence goes beyond architectural elements to architecture as a discipline, including the introduction of other, scientific endeavors such as surveying, engineering, and agronomy. His influence in golf course financing and development models, in development of golf architects and their field, in administration of the game, and simply in bringing the game to America are unparalleled.

Bottom line: the game and where and how we play it very well might appear considerably different in the USA had he not existed.
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DMoriarty

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Re: The Influence of CBM
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2014, 09:12:18 PM »
Sean,  I apologize for my virtual laughing.  The comment struck me because IMO it is hard to underestimate CBM's influence over golf course design in America. Nonetheless it was rude and I apologize.

As for your question, I come at this issue from a historical perspective and have learned quite a bit about what golf course architecture in America was like before CBM and NGLA. If anyone has trouble seeing CBM's influence on golf courses, it is perhaps because his influence was so profound that it virtually wiped the map clean of much of what had gone on before.  There are perhaps a few exceptions, of course, but not many.  His ideas, principles, and methodologies were emulated from coast to coast, on existing courses and on new courses.  

Simple things we take for granted in classic courses - like the importance of width and angles, like the importance of a variety of types holes and greens, like a variety of hole distances, like the availability of alternate routes for lesser players, like strategic placement of hazards, etc., like varying directions, like the importance of the soil and of proper undulations - were ideas propounded by CBM.  Of course he did not invent these ideas - he was admittedly borrowing them from the links courses - but he is the one who popularized them in America, and perhaps he might have even had a hand in popularizing them elsewhere.

You mention MacKenzie and Augusta National, so let's take a look at what MacKenzie had to say about CBM regarding Augusta, and elsewhere.  While St. Andrews gets mentioned a lot in conjunction with ANGC, the course was actually an attempt at an "ideal golf course" based on the best features from the great golf courses of the of the World.  Sound familiar?   Even at ANGC, one could argue that MacKenzie is following in the footsteps of CBM.  It was his "National."  Augusta National.   And MacKenzie specifically acknowledged, that the work and writings of CBM and others had paved the way for the acceptance of a course like Augusta National:

. . . [W]hen I asked [Bob Jones’] opinion about the design of Augusta National, he said that the course would differ so markedly from others, that many of the members at first would have unpleasant things to say about the architects.  A few years ago I would have agreed with Bob, but today, owing to his own teaching, the work and writings of C.B Macdonald, Max Behr, Robert Hunter, and others, Americans appreciate real strategic golf to a greater extent than even in Scotland, the home of Golf.

Mackenzie also wrote that CBM helped launched MacKenzie's golf architecture career when he and Darwin awarded CBM's design for "ideal two shot hole" in their Country Life contest, and then CBM built the hole at his Lido course.  

MacKenzie thought NGLA  a "masterpiece" and a "shining example" which lead to the excellence of many other courses.  (He also noted his preference for NGLA over even Pine Valley:
      North America is rapidly becoming a greater golf center than even the home of golf, Scotland.  The average American golf course is vastly superior to the average Scottish golf course, but I still think the best courses in Scotland, such as the Old Course at St. Andrews, are superior to any in the World.   In the East, the National and Pine Valley are outstanding, and the excellence of many other courses may be traced to their shining example.  My personal preference is for the National.   Although not so spectacular as Pine Valley, it has a greater resemblance to real links land than any course in the East.
     It is also essentially a strategic course; every hole sets a problem.   At the National there are excellent copies of classic holes, but I think the holes, like the 14th and 17th, which C. B. Macdonald has evolved, so to speak, out of his own head, are superior to any of them.


MacKenzie was quite clear about the force behind the excellence of golden age golf architecture in America, and the difficulty of CBM's task:
      In the United States, golf courses are becoming more and more perfect. American golfers owe a debt of gratitude to Charles Blair Macdonald, who was not only the first United States Amateur Champion but the father of golf architecture in America.  
      He had an uphill fight in educating American golfers to an appreciation of a really good golf courses.  On the National Golf Links, Lido, and other links he made copies of famous holes of the old British Championship courses, which was an expensive way of constructing golf courses, but probably the only means of combating criticism and familiarizing players with real golf.  One learns by bitter experience how difficult it is to escape hostile criticisms when one makes a hole of the adventurous type.  
. . .
     A first class golf hole must have subtleties and stragetic problems which are difficult to understand, and are therefore extremely likely to to be condemned at first site by even the best players.  One can only escape hosticle criticism by point out that a hole is a copy of such and such a hole like "the Road," "Eden," "Redan" or some other equally famous.  
     It was in this way that Macdonald was able to familiarize American players with real golf and make the work easy for other architects that followed him.  


And . . .
  The trouble in those early days was that all golfers except a very small handful of pioneers belonged to the penal school.  Today we have no such battles to fight. I hardly come across a thinking member of a committee who does not belong to the strategic school.
   Owing to the example and writings of C. B. Macdonald, Max Behr, Robert Hunter, and other able American golf course architects, the United States are absorbing the real sporting spirit of golf so rapidly that today, with the exception of St. Andrews and a few similar clubs, American committees have sounder views than have committees in the "Home of Golf."


So I think it fair to say that MacKenzie thought that CBM had a profound influence on golf course architecture in America.    What do you think?

Who is next?  Perry Maxwell?   His CBM connection demonstrates just how widespread CBM's influence over golf course architecture had become, even by 1910 . . .  
« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 09:21:18 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Bill_McBride

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Re: The Influence of CBM
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2014, 09:38:06 PM »
IIRC the Alwoodley course opened in 1907, while the design competition was in 1914.  Surely Mackenzie must be regarded as an accomplished architect prior to 1914. 

Mark Bourgeois

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Re: The Influence of CBM
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2014, 09:46:03 PM »
Well, it's not entirely clear how much of Alwoodley was Colt and how much was Mackenzie. While Mackenzie was an accomplished architect by 1914, it's probably best to describe him at that time as a regional or even as a local architect.
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DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Influence of CBM
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2014, 09:47:38 PM »
Bill,  I am just going by what MacKenzie wrote in Scotland's Gift.  I think the reference is to his golf course architecture "career" which apparently must have received a boost after the contest.  Wasn't MacKenzie a founding member of Alwoodley?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Nigel Islam

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Re: The Influence of CBM
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2014, 10:17:30 PM »
1. I think the Country Life competition opened the door for MacKenzie to travel to the US and also Australia.
2. CBM was responsible for the first 18 hole course in the country. That's influential
3. CBM found Raynor and saw his talent
4. I think there are a lot of courses that incorporate Redans and edens in the US which would not have happened without CBM
5. CBM and Raynor influenced Pete Dye who almost always has a cape and a redan on his courses
6. Go down to Florida and you can play courses with 3-6 cape holes a side. A bit repetitive but an influence nonetheless 

Bill_McBride

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Re: The Influence of CBM
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2014, 11:25:33 PM »
Bill,  I am just going by what MacKenzie wrote in Scotland's Gift.  I think the reference is to his golf course architecture "career" which apparently must have received a boost after the contest.  Wasn't MacKenzie a founding member of Alwoodley?

He was part of a group that formed Alwoodley after Leeds Golf Club became overcrowded.  He laid out the new course.  Colt was called in to consult and reportedly approved everything Mackenzie had designed.  I'm not that familiar with the timeline, but I think Mackenzie was designing courses before the Country Life design. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The Influence of CBM
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2014, 11:31:47 PM »
1. I think the Country Life competition opened the door for MacKenzie to travel to the US and also Australia.
2. CBM was responsible for the first 18 hole course in the country. That's influential
3. CBM found Raynor and saw his talent
4. I think there are a lot of courses that incorporate Redans and edens in the US which would not have happened without CBM
5. CBM and Raynor influenced Pete Dye who almost always has a cape and a redan on his courses
6. Go down to Florida and you can play courses with 3-6 cape holes a side. A bit repetitive but an influence nonetheless 

I agree with all of these except 3 and 6.

Macdonald was not the first to identify the Redan as a great hole; the Great Hole Discussion of 1901 by the leading players in Britain chose it as the ideal par 3 and CBM ran with that.  Many other architects used it as a foundational piece and that owes to North Berwick, not to CBM.  The same is true of the Eden, the Road hole, and the Alps.

As for 6, I think you can give CBM more credit for popularizing the Cape hole (and the Biarritz), but giving him double credit for Pete Dye's career and then for all the holes that Mr Dye built or influenced is quite a stretch.

There are many designers who have advanced the art.  Giving too much credit to any one of them is a mistake, but I think it is fair to say Macdonald's influence is right up there with anyone after Old Tom Morris.

DMoriarty

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Re: The Influence of CBM
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2014, 12:23:52 AM »
Macdonald was not the first to identify the Redan as a great hole; the Great Hole Discussion of 1901 by the leading players in Britain chose it as the ideal par 3 and CBM ran with that.  Many other architects used it as a foundational piece and that owes to North Berwick, not to CBM.  The same is true of the Eden, the Road hole, and the Alps.

Tom, CBM was not the first to identify those holes as great, but he most certainly was the person who popularized the hole concepts in the United States.  I am unaware of anyone basing holes on these hole concepts in the United State before CBM's NGLA project got going.  There was a hole named "Redan" at TCC, but it had nothing to do with the Berwick Redan concept that was made so popular by CBM. There were a few holes named "Alps" here and there, but again they had nothing to do with Prestwick or the concept as made popular by CBM.

Or maybe I am missing something.  If so, who were the designers emulating the Redan, Alps, Eden, etc. before CBM began to popularize the concepts in America?   
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 03:43:45 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The Influence of CBM
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2014, 11:10:59 AM »
David:

I guess we will just have to disagree as to whether copying famous links holes is THE most important development in the history of golf course architecture ... even above the guys who built the original holes that were being copied.

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Influence of CBM
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2014, 11:43:05 AM »
David:

I guess we will just have to disagree as to whether copying famous links holes is THE most important development in the history of golf course architecture ... even above the guys who built the original holes that were being copied.

I think from a pure world perspective CBM did not have nearly the influence MacKenzie did, but you can make an argument that CBM had as much influence on US golf. That was the point I was making in my earlier post. He took those great ideas for golf holes and brought them across the pond. That has to count for something.

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Influence of CBM
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2014, 12:06:00 PM »
I think Mark B put it very well:

"...The idea of "borrowing" from holes in the UK, just the intellectual concept of those courses serving as wellsprings of imagination, might be far less common [if not for CBM]"

Strikes me as valid, and yet it brings me back back to my hesitancy in assigning 'iinfluence' -- since while pointing others to sources for their own inspiration/imagination is important and useful, it is not an influence as I understand the term. It also seems to make the external, objective source (the UK golf holes) more important than the internal, subjective imagination (that of talented architect).  

Peter

« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 12:17:15 PM by PPallotta »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Influence of CBM
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2014, 12:10:37 PM »
David:

I guess we will just have to disagree as to whether copying famous links holes is THE most important development in the history of golf course architecture ... even above the guys who built the original holes that were being copied.

Don't be ridiculous, Tom.  I have never said or implied that "copying famous links is THE most important development in the history of golf course architecture . . ."  Perhaps the conversation would be more productive if we all could refrain from just making stuff up.

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

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Re: The Influence of CBM
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2014, 12:15:36 PM »
Peter if you are truly interested in understanding CBM's influence, I suggest you familiarize yourself with what golf architecture in America pre-NGLA.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Influence of CBM
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2014, 12:26:28 PM »
David - it was, no doubt, a virtual wasteland. And again, in one sense I agree completely with you and the long established consensus opinion/conventional wisdom of CBM as the father of American golf course architecture. But, since discussions are more interesting to me 'on the edges' and when we poke around at the consensus/convention, I ask again whether you or anyone else would suggest that it took CBM to somehow influence/foster/shape the work of his best contemporaries. Did any good architect familiar with St Andrews or other great GB&I courses in the 1910s and 20s not understand the principles behind the great holes, or the value of width/angles? Was CBM's primary influece as an educator (of his fellow architects) or as a promoter (to the general golfing community)? There's a difference there.

Peter

DMoriarty

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Re: The Influence of CBM
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2014, 12:39:02 PM »
Peter.  If "the best of his contemporaries" had understood the importance of following these principles, then golf course design in America would not have been a "virtual wasteland" (as you put it) before CBM.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Influence of CBM
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2014, 01:15:52 PM »
Peter, if you want an example of CBM's direct influence, take a look at Perry Maxwell.  Maxwell was a non-golfer living in rural Oklahoma, but he began designing golf courses after he and his wife read H.J. Whigham's article, "The Ideal Golf Links," in Scribner's Magazine (May 1909.)  The article was largely about CBM's National Golf Links and provided descriptions of every hole and discussion and diagrams of the architectural principles upon which many of the holes were based.  His wife (who appreciated the fantastic Franklin Booth sketches in the article) thought golf might be good for Perry and wondered if they could build a course like that on their Ardmore, Oklahoma property, so Perry took up golf, studied agronomy,  traveled to the East Coast to study NGLA and some of the other courses, and then designed Dornich Hills and a few others you might have heard of.  

To me one of the more remarkable parts of this story was that in 1909, Scribner's - a general subject magazine with wide distribution - featured an article on the design of a golf course. And not just a blurb, but a long feature article with original artwork by a prominent artist, Franklin Booth.  And the course was not yet open.  That might give people some idea of the importance of NGLA at the time, and the extent of its influence.

While anecdotal, the Maxwell story is emblematic of what happened with American golf course architecture.  There wasn't too much quality golf course architecture to speak of before NGLA.  But with NGLA (and with the incredible publicity it received)  America learned what golf architecture could be.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: The Influence of CBM
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2014, 03:20:20 PM »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mark Bourgeois

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Re: The Influence of CBM
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2014, 06:58:37 PM »

Strikes me as valid, and yet it brings me back back to my hesitancy in assigning 'influence' -- since while pointing others to sources for their own inspiration/imagination is important and useful, it is not an influence as I understand the term. It also seems to make the external, objective source (the UK golf holes) more important than the internal, subjective imagination (that of talented architect).  


Peter,

While I think it might have been the case that Raynor, the disciple, let templates (the external) crowd out whatever "imaginative" thoughts (the internal) he might have had, I don't see that as the case with Macdonald.

The way I see it, Macdonald did not simply 'point others to sources for their own inspiration,' he articulated a philosophy of design, a 'school of design' if you will. He took the 'things' that were holes and features on UK courses and idealized or stylized them; he 'converted' those things into ideas. He stripped the superfluities from them, distilled them into core principles. And once he had converted the original things into thoughts, he used those thoughts to create new things, things that were 'purified', honed into what he felt they really meant (or should have meant).

For example, he criticized the original Eden hole for the 'weakness' it could be played with a putter and sought to 'correct' that weakness in his designs. For example, he didn't always copy holes entirely but sometimes mixed and matched features from different holes. For example, he created his own holes, templates derived from his notions of the ideal. Things to thoughts to things.

And so his influence flowed outwards like layers of an onion. For those architects seeking the most superficial of ideas, there were the UK templates (or Macdonald's interpretations of them) ready to be copied and installed in their projects. For those seeking more, the next layer offered the components of the templates: a Road bunker, a Cape green -- a bunker playing the role of the road on the Road. And for those peeling all the way to the core: a philosophy, a way of understanding extant courses so that one could find the solutions to whatever design problem they faced in a project. Things to thoughts and then back to things.

Macdonald may not have completely articulated this philosophy until his book, which by then was too late to influence the Golden Age designers. BUT on the other hand one could argue that if any sought his philosophy, and many did in the early 1900s, all one had to do was look around NGLA. His philosophy was in the ground. And, of course, if someone didn't understand, undoubtedly he would be made to understand, personally and probably a la Lyndon Johnson, by Charlie Mac himself.  ::)

Mark

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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Influence of CBM
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2014, 07:43:54 PM »
Mark

Others already had the "same philosophy" in the ground unless so called improvements are considered a philosophy.  

I can buy the part of CBM bringing golf to the US, but I wonder if wasn't going to happen anyway when the Brits hit the road.  In other words, it may be the case that CBM was a middle man preaching the word before the preachers went on tour.  

Other than the bit about Maxwell, I am a bit dubious about the answers given thus far.  The main push seems to be "in America" as if the US was a bubble in the business.  I tend to look at architecture from a global perspective because ideas were communicated across continents.  Those who cared to know were in the know.  That said, there can be no doubt that CBM assembled 18 holes based on principles, some of which he may have originated and that he was in the front wave if at the back end of that wave.  In other words, CBM had some incredibly high shoulders to stand on, templates or no (and this assumes that the template push was terribly influential which I am not sure about).  

Ciao  
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 07:45:55 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Bill Brightly

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Re: The Influence of CBM
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2014, 08:25:31 PM »
If anyone has trouble seeing CBM's influence on golf courses, it is perhaps because his influence was so profound that it virtually wiped the map clean of much of what had gone on before.  


     It was in this way that Macdonald was able to familiarize American players with real golf and make the work easy for other architects that followed him.  [/i][/color]

Great post, David. I'd like to focus on these two sentences.

What CBM built at National cerainly did wipe away many courses. My home club, Hackensack, had a simple Bendelow course built in 1899. By the mid 1920's our leaders decided to move to a new location 8 miles north and build an entirely new course. This scenario was repeated time and again throughout the US. The old penal style courses had to go and these were replaced by courses that were considered to be up to the standard of the day.

While I understand why David said CBM made it easier for architects, I would go one step further and say CBM made it MANDATORY for other architects to produce outstanding new designs. Think about it from a business perspective: from 1910 to 1930 Tillinghast, Ross and others were competing against Raynor (with CBM)  for the same projects. They had to convince club leaders that they could build courses of equal or greater merit.  (I know this for a fact, because these architects, along with Styles & Van Kleek) submitted "propositions" to build the new course for Hackensack in 1926.) NGLA was the game changer that spurred the great classic courses in the US.  

« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 08:27:19 PM by Bill Brightly »

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