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William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Book of Personal Golf Course reviews Klein or Doak?
« on: August 23, 2014, 01:29:38 AM »
If a book of personal golf course reviews existed for Klein as well as Doak   ;D

So if you were to recommend a book of golf course reviews, would you say Brad or Tom?

Golfweeker or Confidential Guider

golf writer or golf course designer

Dr. or non-Dr.

fun, no?

thanks you Brad and Tom for any fun had at your expense

It's all about the golf!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Book of Personal Golf Course reviews Klein or Doak?
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2014, 02:27:09 AM »
William:

I'm sure more people would rather see Brad's reviews, because they've already seen most of mine.

When I started thinking about the new edition of The Confidential Guide, I wished that I could ask Brad and Ron Whitten and Joe Passov to provide their own ratings for all the courses.  That would be some book.

However, I didn't ask them, because I am pretty sure they couldn't do it.  Their contracts with the various magazines tie up their opinions of courses, and force them to toe the line politically, at least a bit.  GOLF DIGEST and GOLFWEEK would surely not want their architecture editors publishing something together.


Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Book of Personal Golf Course reviews Klein or Doak?
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2014, 02:38:20 AM »
William:  both. 

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Book of Personal Golf Course reviews Klein or Doak?
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2014, 09:25:45 AM »
In this day and age, I don't imagine searching the Golf Week website for Brad's course reviews would be all that hard, and thus just short of a book form.

As to which one, while both have merit, I would go with TD, again using the Jamie Oliver quote about those who do the work being more important than those who talk about the work.  Maybe that is just my perspective as a gca.  However,  I agree with TD, that a compendium of various reviewers would have some interest.

I find myself wondering how TD's revised reviews/second edition might read, now with 20+ years of design experience, a bit of maturity, and a more established position in the golf world.  Should be interesting to see the differences in perspective between then and now.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Book of Personal Golf Course reviews Klein or Doak?
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2014, 09:49:14 AM »
I wish we could have both of them without the numbers - well, at least a ban or limits on discussing their numbers here. Personal opinion obviously but it's grown tiresome to me. Maybe they're just caught up in the board's current whirlwind. (Once upon a time we had photo tour after photo tour after photo tour; my personal opinion is that like #s they can crowd out opportunities for interesting discussion. Tours seem less common currently, so maybe this too shall pass.)
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Book of Personal Golf Course reviews Klein or Doak?
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2014, 09:55:50 AM »
"Gray Grieve's Golf Guide"
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
It's all about the golf!

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Book of Personal Golf Course reviews Klein or Doak?
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2014, 10:29:48 AM »
William:

I'm sure more people would rather see Brad's reviews, because they've already seen most of mine.

When I started thinking about the new edition of The Confidential Guide, I wished that I could ask Brad and Ron Whitten and Joe Passov to provide their own ratings for all the courses.  That would be some book.

However, I didn't ask them, because I am pretty sure they couldn't do it.  Their contracts with the various magazines tie up their opinions of courses, and force them to toe the line politically, at least a bit.  GOLF DIGEST and GOLFWEEK would surely not want their architecture editors publishing something together.



It would be worth it to ask.
It's all about the golf!

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Book of Personal Golf Course reviews Klein or Doak?
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2014, 10:31:03 AM »
It's all about the golf!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Book of Personal Golf Course reviews Klein or Doak?
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2014, 12:15:15 PM »
I'll go with the guy who gives me a free copy for minimal input  :D

Like Mark, I wouldn't mind a version with no numbers, just perhaps an appendix with courses grouped by preference/recommendation status.  Or should the idea of recommendation be completely dropped?  Maybe, the CG has certainly veered well left of this original intention. 

Unlike Mark, I think this site would be far less than it is without photo tours. The tours are a way to bring the world together, all can share the courses as lmuch as they like.  Quite honestly, I don't care much for esoteric discussions unattached to real courses.  I don't think there are many on this site who can pull off that type of discussion very well.  I don't think many really understand what these discussions are truly about - including me. And if we are going to talk about real stuff in the ground rather than pie in the sky philosophy, its better to have visual clues than not.  Hell, even with pie in the sky stuff, kits better to have visual clues.  Who here hasn't seen a likeness of Plato  8) 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Book of Personal Golf Course reviews Klein or Doak?
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2014, 05:11:25 PM »
Sean,

Reread my post; I'm not anti photo tour, I'm anti 25 photo tours at once. And you are making my point: a photo or three used to illustrate a point is fantastic.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Sam Morrow

Re: Book of Personal Golf Course reviews Klein or Doak?
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2014, 12:03:58 AM »
We've already seen much of what Doak has to say, Klein has to show some diplomacy as to not upset advertisers so you'd have to go with someone else who can be completely honest.  Some good ones,

Don Mahaffey
Ben Crenshaw
Mike Keiser
Dick Youngscap
John Kavanaugh

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Book of Personal Golf Course reviews Klein or Doak?
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2014, 05:14:26 AM »
Don Mahaffey
Ben Crenshaw
Mike Keiser
Dick Youngscap
John Kavanaugh

That's a pretty strange list of people.  I know all five of them reasonably well, and would never have thought to list them all together.

However, as to your premise, there are at least two of them who would never be caught dead saying something negative about a golf course in public, even though they have very strong opinions in private.

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Book of Personal Golf Course reviews Klein or Doak?
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2014, 06:31:48 AM »
The global coverage in the confidential guide is one of its great strengths.

Has Brad Klein played/reviewed many courses outside the USA?

Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Book of Personal Golf Course reviews Klein or Doak?
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2014, 08:32:52 AM »
In this day and age, I don't imagine searching the Golf Week website for Brad's course reviews would be all that hard, and thus just short of a book form.

Jeff,

Try googling 'Brad Klein Rater's Notebook'.  You'll only get 10-15 of his reviews.  For whatever reason, Golfweek doesn't appear to have a good, searchable database. Pretty annoying actually.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Book of Personal Golf Course reviews Klein or Doak?
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2014, 10:09:49 AM »
A Siskel & Ebert format of Golf Course reviews between some or all of the above mentioned would be interesting. .......... but probably not possible.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Peter Pallotta

Re: Book of Personal Golf Course reviews Klein or Doak?
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2014, 10:23:16 AM »
I'm sure I'd learn a lot from Brad's book and that it would be a good one - but I wonder about the underlying assumptions here. If an understanding of/appreciation for golf course architecture is in part subjective, and if one can gain that understanding in several ways (e.g. months studying and playing just one or two great courses; years playing a hundred different good courses), what do we think that Brad might offer that, say, Sean or Mark or Carl couldn't? Not meant to be a leading/rigged question -- a genuine question as to what qualities and experience folks believe makes someone's reviews/rankings worth reading.

Peter

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Book of Personal Golf Course reviews Klein or Doak?
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2014, 10:34:31 AM »
Gee, 16 responses and nobody has answered Tom Doak.

I enjoy reading Brad Klein's thoughts on golf.  He's a great writer.

But the answer to this question is clearly Tom Doak, who is the most influential golf critic of our generation, perhaps of all time.


William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Book of Personal Golf Course reviews Klein or Doak?
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2014, 10:41:55 AM »
Gee, 16 responses and nobody has answered Tom Doak.

I enjoy reading Brad Klein's thoughts on golf.  He's a great writer.

But the answer to this question is clearly Tom Doak, who is the most influential golf critic of our generation, perhaps of all time.



 :)
It's all about the golf!

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Book of Personal Golf Course reviews Klein or Doak?
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2014, 11:35:51 AM »
Gee, 16 responses and nobody has answered Tom Doak.

I enjoy reading Brad Klein's thoughts on golf.  He's a great writer.

But the answer to this question is clearly Tom Doak, who is the most influential golf critic of our generation, perhaps of all time.



See reply 3

"As to which one, while both have merit, I would go with TD, again using the Jamie Oliver quote about those who do the work being more important than those who talk about the work.  Maybe that is just my perspective as a gca"
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Book of Personal Golf Course reviews Klein or Doak?
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2014, 12:04:09 PM »
I'm sure I'd learn a lot from Brad's book and that it would be a good one - but I wonder about the underlying assumptions here. If an understanding of/appreciation for golf course architecture is in part subjective, and if one can gain that understanding in several ways (e.g. months studying and playing just one or two great courses; years playing a hundred different good courses), what do we think that Brad might offer that, say, Sean or Mark or Carl couldn't? Not meant to be a leading/rigged question -- a genuine question as to what qualities and experience folks believe makes someone's reviews/rankings worth reading.
Peter
A few years back I started a thread asking the question "Who is qualified to rate (review) Golf Courses?"  And I quickly came to the conclusion that I was not qualified for a severe lack of golf experiences.  Your life choices must permit you to immerse yourself into it over an extended period time.
My only claim is that I live in Tidewater Virginia and have a good sense of what is a good bang for the buck in a 40 mile radius.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 09:34:35 AM by Carl Rogers »
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Book of Personal Golf Course reviews Klein or Doak?
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2014, 05:27:24 PM »

A few years back I stated a thread asking the question "Who is qualified to rate (review) Golf Courses?"  And I quickly came to the conclusion that I was not qualified for a severe lack of golf experiences.  Your life choices must permit you to immerse yourself into it over an extended period time.
My only claim is that I live in Tidewater Virginia and have a good sense of what is a good bang for the buck in a 40 mile radius.

Carl,

Ten years ago despite having played several hundred golf courses in the U.S., I hadn't been anywhere that "made a difference" as far as GCA. So I probably felt a lot like you.

Now, I've been fortunate to have played some of the world and US top 100, and I 've played several of the courses that make discussion fertilizer around here.

But I still sometimes feel un-qualified to comment much, for the simple fact that I think the "best" courses mostly get a lot of credit for being damned hard. I can't get past the feeling that courses like Pine Valley, Carnoustie, and many others, aren't a whole lot of fun for 90% of the people who play them.

I'm big fan of the "State of the Game" podcasts and when they had author Chris Buie on to talk about his Pinehurst book, he used the term "sporty" to describe a golf course.  I liked it as much as they did, because it describes the courses I like.

I guess my point is that you needn't minimize your ability to rate a golf course, there are a lot of well-traveled, highly skilled golfers who aren't as qualified as you, if only because they prize difficulty far to much.

In recent months I have seen a few of those very golfers denigrate The Old Course, and praise the Jubilee Course in St Andrews.

Which is all I need to hear.  I'd rather play Cullen GC at 4,600 yards and par 63 than have to try to survive another round at Jubilee.  (Although, to be honest, if I could get on, I'd head to Elie in a heartbeat.)

K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Book of Personal Golf Course reviews Klein or Doak?
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2014, 11:36:05 PM »
Gee, 16 responses and nobody has answered Tom Doak.

I enjoy reading Brad Klein's thoughts on golf.  He's a great writer.

But the answer to this question is clearly Tom Doak, who is the most influential golf critic of our generation, perhaps of all time.



See reply 3

"As to which one, while both have merit, I would go with TD, again using the Jamie Oliver quote about those who do the work being more important than those who talk about the work.  Maybe that is just my perspective as a gca"

Hi Jeff,

Yes, sorry I missed that, perhaps because I was looking for the word "Doak" and not keying on "TD".

It does seem to me that Brad's course reviews have improved.  He keeps getting better and better at his job, especially in terms of how entertaining he analyzes things.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Book of Personal Golf Course reviews Klein or Doak?
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2014, 12:29:45 AM »
Without a doubt, it's TD
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Book of Personal Golf Course reviews Klein or Doak?
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2014, 10:21:46 AM »
Both have tremendous merit and value.
Perhaps Tom is less hancuffed to voice his opinions with less detrimental feedback should he piss somebody off.
I am sittinghere trying to think of who else re Sam's list that I would like to hear/see.
Mr Crenshaw wouldnt say anything to upset anybody, Don Mahhafey certainly is somebody whose opinion I would value, Mucci certainly knows his stuff but I think two hours behind closed doors with Messrs Doak, Coore and Klein would do me nicely.

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