[Bart Bradley]

Bart...

I firmly believe a newcomer must play both courses with a member or risk being overwhelmed. Only the most mentally stable and architecturally curious will be able to handle the unique nature of both courses without a guide.

Wow...awesome. Hope my head doesn't explode!

Bart

[Mac Plumart]

I don't think that anyone can understand all that poor to average courses have to offer after one play.

I am pretty sure that one with a talent for such things can usually understand whether a course is excellent after one play.

I think that there is a difference between enjoying a course over time and understanding whether it is a good course.

I agree with that, David.

The main thing I'm trying to do is pass along information about the courses, so if anyone goes they maximize their chance of enjoyment. They are unique and tough courses. Play with a member if you can. Like you'd play with a caddy at The Old Course or Noeth Bwerick. Lots of nuances and subtleties that make a big difference.

[Mac Plumart]

Bart...

I firmly believe a newcomer must play both courses with a member or risk being overwhelmed. Only the most mentally stable and architecturally curious will be able to handle the unique nature of both courses without a guide.

Wow...awesome. Hope my head doesn't explode!

Bart

I've seen it happen when people think theyve hit a good drive on 2 but go theough the fairway and lose their ball. Wrong line!

:-)

[John Kavanaugh]

Dismal River is a superb golfing experience, but neither of the courses is a 9 (Doak Scale--not sure what a Klein 9.0 means).  In my Rihcelin Scale, they are each in the 1*-2** range., which translates to ~top 50-300 in the world.  Both have a few world-class holes but both have a few only above average holes and a few routing issues.  Comparing and contrasting the two is a futile exercise.  If you have the privilege of playing there, enjoy the privilege and play your golf one shot at a time and in good humor.

Makes perfect sense. Glad you enjoyed yourself and hope you make it back someday when we can partner up.

[Lou_Duran]

Lou,

I think you're talking about the first hole here (?), which I agree can be a long way home when you don't catch your tee shot, but my post was about the second shot at no. 2. Even if you crush it there the next shot is going to be blind, save for the top of the flag stick on occasion.

I stand corrected.  Thanks.

Apparently I also missed much of what Chris was articulating in his "double blind" concept.  Not having a visual cue from the surroundings to suggest the target line is what I typically encounter on blind shots.  Landmarks and cow skulls are usually only useful in subsequent rounds (if one is paying attention, a blind shot should only be disarmingly blind on the maiden voyage).

[Michael George]

“A good golf course is like good music. It does not necessarily appeal the first time one plays it.” - Alister MacKenzie

“A good golf course grows on one like a good painting, good music, or any other artistic creation. It is not necessarily a course which appeals the first time one plays over it, but one that grows on the player the more frequently he visits it.” - Alister MacKenzie

"A golf hole, humanly speaking, is like life, in as much as one cannot judge justly of any person’s character the first time one meets him. Sometimes it takes years to discover and appreciate hidden qualities which only time discloses, and he usually discloses them on the links." - C.B. Macdonald

[Andy Troeger]

Andy...

You won't get either one after one play. You'll be filled with questions, but have no real answers. You'll know the Doak is good, but
You'll not be able to fully understand how great it is.

Pick almost an hole on Doak...say 12. Depending on the wind and playing ability, the play might be driver right at the pin, 3 wood right of the skull, or 6 iron to the top of the ridge.  With one play, you'll never understand those options and which one works for you.

Take 6, down wind you might drive the green. Into the wind, you might hit way right with 4 iron.

Lots of holes like this...4 (all time great hole), 6, 9, 12, 14, 15, 17, 18.

One play no one can understand how to play it optimally. If you are architecturally astute, you'll see the decisions that need to be made but you'll have no idea which ones are right for you.

If people want to pooh pooh that...whatever. It's your life. Enjoy your point of view. 

Mac,
I see where we're diverging at this point. When I play a course for the first time, my game is irrelevant. Heck, I'm so inconsistent that there's no "right strategy." Generally using your example of #6, I'd be equally capable of driving the green or hitting 4-iron where I can't find it, among other options. When I'm looking at options on a golf course I'm looking to see if there are any, not so much what makes the most sense for my particular game. That's why I don't think it is that hard to understand the options on one play. As far as the rest, my game provides infinite variety to make just about any round interesting, regardless of the course!

I do understand how one play would not be enough to learn how to play it optimally. That's not infrequent. But that's a very different thing than "getting it," which I would argue is not as complicated as we sometimes make it out to be.

[Andy Troeger]

“A good golf course is like good music. It does not necessarily appeal the first time one plays it.” - Alister MacKenzie

“A good golf course grows on one like a good painting, good music, or any other artistic creation. It is not necessarily a course which appeals the first time one plays over it, but one that grows on the player the more frequently he visits it.” - Alister MacKenzie

"A golf hole, humanly speaking, is like life, in as much as one cannot judge justly of any person’s character the first time one meets him. Sometimes it takes years to discover and appreciate hidden qualities which only time discloses, and he usually discloses them on the links." - C.B. Macdonald

Interesting quotes, and a bit ironic from my experience. Both MacKenzie and MacDonald's designs are bold, vivid, and generally very appealing on first glance. I find it hard to equate a golf hole to a person's character. I accept the premise of the analogy, but the proportion is like comparing a hill to a mountain.

I wish I could ask MacKenzie for some examples, Mucci style! 

[John Kavanaugh]

“A good golf course is like good music. It does not necessarily appeal the first time one plays it.” - Alister MacKenzie

“A good golf course grows on one like a good painting, good music, or any other artistic creation. It is not necessarily a course which appeals the first time one plays over it, but one that grows on the player the more frequently he visits it.” - Alister MacKenzie

"A golf hole, humanly speaking, is like life, in as much as one cannot judge justly of any person’s character the first time one meets him. Sometimes it takes years to discover and appreciate hidden qualities which only time discloses, and he usually discloses them on the links." - C.B. Macdonald

Interesting quotes, and a bit ironic from my experience. Both MacKenzie and MacDonald's designs are bold, vivid, and generally very appealing on first glance. I find it hard to equate a golf hole to a person's character. I accept the premise of the analogy, but the proportion is like comparing a hill to a mountain.

I wish I could ask MacKenzie for some examples, Mucci style! 

A Biarritz is the dumbest thing ever seen.  I suppose after a few plays it may grow on you. Dismal White has a number of Biarritz like features. I can't fault anyone for hating them the first few times around.

[Mac Plumart]

Andy...

You won't get either one after one play. You'll be filled with questions, but have no real answers. You'll know the Doak is good, but
You'll not be able to fully understand how great it is.

Pick almost an hole on Doak...say 12. Depending on the wind and playing ability, the play might be driver right at the pin, 3 wood right of the skull, or 6 iron to the top of the ridge.  With one play, you'll never understand those options and which one works for you.

Take 6, down wind you might drive the green. Into the wind, you might hit way right with 4 iron.

Lots of holes like this...4 (all time great hole), 6, 9, 12, 14, 15, 17, 18.

One play no one can understand how to play it optimally. If you are architecturally astute, you'll see the decisions that need to be made but you'll have no idea which ones are right for you.

If people want to pooh pooh that...whatever. It's your life. Enjoy your point of view. 

Mac,
I see where we're diverging at this point. When I play a course for the first time, my game is irrelevant. Heck, I'm so inconsistent that there's no "right strategy." Generally using your example of #6, I'd be equally capable of driving the green or hitting 4-iron where I can't find it, among other options. When I'm looking at options on a golf course I'm looking to see if there are any, not so much what makes the most sense for my particular game. That's why I don't think it is that hard to understand the options on one play. As far as the rest, my game provides infinite variety to make just about any round interesting, regardless of the course!

I do understand how one play would not be enough to learn how to play it optimally. That's not infrequent. But that's a very different thing than "getting it," which I would argue is not as complicated as we sometimes make it out to be.

Andy...

Not everyone is like you.  In fact, I'd say very few are.  To get to where you apparently are, you need to let go of the card and pencil.  Few can.  But, if they can, then, you are right...judging a course on architectural merit is a lot easier.

[Brent Hutto]

Andy,

I've seen plenty of mundane courses which try to offer an "option" here or there. But many of those so-called options don't really make sense for my game, your game or Rory McIlroy's game for that matter.

It has always seemed to the existence of a true "option" (meaning both alternatives can be sensible for some people, some time) is in fact something for which a first impression can be misleading.

Then again, I've no doubt with sufficient experience a person might be able to discern the true options from the silly lame pseudo-options at a glance.

[Richard Choi]

Having somebody tell me all the subtleties of a golf course is like someone telling me how great a meal is at Le Bernadine.

I quite enjoy finding out the subtleties myself. I want it to surprise and delight me. That is half the fun of playing a new course. If I miss some subtleties the first time around, all the more excuse to come back and try again.

Did I say before that I am not a big fan of caddies?

[Peter Pallotta]

"Then again, I've no doubt with sufficient experience a person might be able to discern the true options from the silly lame pseudo-options at a glance."

I'd bet that you could, Brett -- and maybe even me, and maybe even hundreds more of us. From my point of view, there simply is nothing on a golf course, any golf course, so hidden and subtle that it requires sufficient experience in order to quickly discern, and no lame pseudo-option that doesn't appear that way almost immediately, and to almost everyone. (I know this is true because when i play with golfers who seem not to care a whit about 'architecture' and we come to a pseudo option, they tend to ignore it completely and right off the bat, without a single comment or single thought. They know enough, in short, to know that it doesn't matter to them, whatever their handicap.)

[Andrew Lewis]

Did I say before that I am not a big fan of caddies?

Richard -

I recall you specifically requesting a certain caddy at a certain club out west based on a couple experiences I had with said person. But perhaps that is better left for the caddy story thread...

Cheers, Andrew

[Dan Herrmann]

A sign of a great design is when you can't wait to play the course again and again.    DR Red has that pull on me.

[Jud_T]

Richard,

I gave the kitchen table menu at le Bernardin a 9.  But I only played it once...

[Andy Troeger]

I had a big post typed out and lost it...grrr. So here's the more concise version...

Repeat plays are great and certainly preferable, but I'm ok with opinions coming from one round on the macro elements of a course. I can see how those who are most interested in the micro elements would have a problem with that. To each their own. I feel justified in having an opinion on a golf course after one play, but try to avoid being offended if someone disagrees or finds my opinion to be irrelevant. I still believe most of this is pretty subjective anyway.

Mac,
I would agree there. My golfing methods are a bit odd. I played over 200 tournaments before I turned 18, so I understand the other perspective as well. I'm ok with looking at the big picture of a course, because I don't think one ever understands every little nuance of a course. They are living, dynamic things in many ways, so there's always something to learn.

Brent,
Some option holes are better than others. Valhalla #7 intrigues me, because the long knocker pros can all go left and make the hole look silly, when the vast majority of amateurs are better served going right because the risk is so high for not pulling off perfect shots going left. I don't think its a great hole, but I give it some points for at least providing the option. Most golfers will always make the same decision, however, depending on their ability. The better option holes create more variety based on wind or pin placement. I think the difference is often apparent in one play, but I'm sure I miss some too.

 

[Richard Choi]

Did I say before that I am not a big fan of caddies?

Richard -

I recall you specifically requesting a certain caddy at a certain club out west based on a couple experiences I had with said person. But perhaps that is better left for the caddy story thread...

Cheers, Andrew

Best caddie EVER!!!

[William_G]

Did I say before that I am not a big fan of caddies?

Richard -

I recall you specifically requesting a certain caddy at a certain club out west based on a couple experiences I had with said person. But perhaps that is better left for the caddy story thread...

Cheers, Andrew

Best caddie EVER!!!

10.0!

[Sean_A]

I disagree with Pietro.  There is a ton of subtle stuff that needs experience to "see".  Often times the subtle stuff has to do with ground movement.  People focus on bunkering, but nearly always bunkering is a road map of how to play a hole.  Lets look at THE CLASSIC example - Woking #4.  Everybody ooohs and aaaaahs over the centreline bunkers.  The choice is quite obvious; danger right, safety left.  What people tend to need at least (assuming they have pulled off two shots to discover the well of interest and are observant) two plays to discover is how the green works in concert with the Principal's Nose.  Play safe and it isn't just a covering front left bunker which causes consternation, but the green also runs away from this angle or approach.  This isn't readily apparent until one hits what he thinks is a good approach only to watch it roll toward the tracks and get bunkered on the back end of the green.  Bottom line, it will take exceptional play to earn a par from the left, but that isn't even close to readily apparent when standing on the tee.  For most people, the way to have a best chance at making par from the left is to lay up shy of the green to the right.  This sort of play takes a nerve of its own because most of us think we can pull off the shot from the left and most of those people are either delusional or have a memory of doing so in wet conditions.  

You tell me which is the best play off the 4th tee at Woking.  I don't know.  Guys can look awfully smart or stupid with any choice.

Forget road map bunkering.  There is a lot of subtlety with ground movement in many of the courses I play.  So much so that often times modern bunkering makes no sense what so ever, yet golfers will play to the bunker scheme and ignore the implications of ground movement. Kington is one of the best examples I know for some great subtlety with ground movement.  

Ciao

[Steve Lang]

   Well, besides the blind and semi-blind shots at DR-R were the experiences of finding the next tees.. that was genuine fun first time out!

[Dan Herrmann]

  Well, besides the blind and semi-blind shots at DR-R were the experiences of finding the next tees.. that was genuine fun first time out!

This is true

[Jud_T]

Is it possible that ones focus goes from big to small with each successive play of a course?  Perhaps that's why eye candy has such a big impact on the wham-bam-thank-you-mam crowd while the best courses continue to reveal their subtler charms over time?  (Not making a statement one way or the other about DRR).

[Mac Plumart]

Is it possible that ones focus goes from big to small with each successive play of a course?  Perhaps that's why eye candy has such a big impact on the wham-bam-thank-you-mam crowd while the best courses continue to reveal their subtler charms over time?  (Not making a statement one way or the other about DRR).

Jud, I agree with you. And to pull away from DRR, many great courses do this on a macro level, the entire course, or on specific holes. 

10 at Riviera.  I don't know, it doesn't look all that amazing from the tee.  But my 3 plays on it, have me wanting to do nothing but play it again and again and again.  And try different things, see it in different weather and winds.  Amazing hole.

Of course, The Old Course and many of its holes are like this.  Lots of people pooh-pooh it right away, but many also become captivated with it over time.

Sean has a great example of 4 at Woking.  I've never played it, but really want to.  It seems like a course that is a bit under the radar for your average golfer, but within certain circles it is held in very high regard.  There is, no doubt, a reason for that.

[Steve Lang]

   I don't know about eye candy there... after the ride in from civilization, there's certainly excitement and anticipation riding out to the first tees.. time to take your breath and tee off!

DR-R #1



p.s.  in respect to the tiering, the DR-R #1 green reminded me of #8 green at Highpointe

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