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John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #125 on: August 22, 2014, 11:49:08 PM »
I'm having a wonderful and happy day, and the goofball in me is having a tough time staying quiet.

Sam Morrow

Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #126 on: August 22, 2014, 11:52:35 PM »
I'm having a wonderful and happy day, and the goofball in me is having a tough time staying quiet.


You gotta wonder how some of these people can live their lives without their heads exploding. Of course that might not be the worst thing in some cases.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #127 on: August 23, 2014, 12:06:32 AM »
My intent was to tease Dismal River a little bit.  Perhaps that did not come through well as a chat comment.  I am happy for the club and its members.  Fun golf course in a great setting.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 08:54:01 AM by John Kirk »

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #128 on: August 23, 2014, 12:50:44 AM »
David M:

Perhaps eventually a few more GOLFWEEK panelists will visit the course who actually know a good thing when they see it.

I would be happy to take Brad's review over theirs any time he provides one, though.  Interesting that his own ratings for the two courses at Streamsong are almost precisely the same as the panel's, but his view of Dismal is so different.

LOL
It's all about the golf!

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #129 on: August 23, 2014, 12:51:49 AM »
It's all about the golf!

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #130 on: August 23, 2014, 12:53:12 AM »
...
I'm not a fan of the one mile ride in a gas powered cart to get to the first tee... but, they had no other choice. Still, it detracts from the experience for me, especially since you've got that same one mile trip back after the round.
...

I really don't get why people are making such a big issue about this.
At Bandon, you have to take a gas powered shuttle to Old MacDonald, for example.
I have never seen that mentioned in a review of the course.


both Sand Hills and Dismal Red are very walkable while Dismal White isn't
It's all about the golf!

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #131 on: August 23, 2014, 01:37:25 AM »
Eric Smith,
In his unsolicited message, your Mr. Doyle repeatedly insulted me and threatened to libel me an effort to try and intimidate me to "shut the fuck up."  It is ludicrous for you suggest that I owe his vile message any degree of privacy. It does not surprise me, though, that rather than considering his despicable behavior, you would instead try to turn it back on me.  

Your "great man" is apparently a lot like your "great golf course." Beyond question or criticism.  Anyone who dares to think differently had better watch out.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #132 on: August 23, 2014, 08:50:57 AM »
Much like a golf course we need to see the message to judge it.  As far as walkability goes both the Red and White have been part of the Hundred Hole Hike stable. Sand Hills, not so much.

The Red is as easier to walk than Sand Hills as Sand Hills is to the White.  I would love to hear specifically what feature on the White makes it a difficult walk.

This will hopefully be the last thread on Dismal ever started so we should get it out now.

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #133 on: August 23, 2014, 08:56:22 AM »

This will hopefully be the last thread on Dismal ever started so we should get it out now.

-1

I am still waiting for Dismal v Kingsley.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #134 on: August 23, 2014, 09:05:25 AM »
No more negative thoughts, please!

This is a congratulatory thread about the Red course at Dismal River.  Brad Klein, one of the most influential and best golf course analysts, has rated the course among the 10 best modern courses in America.

This is cause for celebration.  The architect, the owner, and many club members are members of this website.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #135 on: August 23, 2014, 10:05:39 AM »
Could we get the elephant out of the room and post a picture of the Moriarty house?  Let the healing begin. We brought this upon ourselves.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #136 on: August 23, 2014, 10:43:18 AM »
Haven't you guys heard that there's no such thing as bad publicity?  The controversy and strong feelings make Dismal a must play even for the skeptics; and it's what's going to get my fat ass on the Nicklaus course at least once; hell I may even pay up for a pork chop while I'm at it.  While it's true that Brad is just 1 guy, and his blessing by no means makes this the second best course built in the last 50 years, let's not underestimate his impact either.  I recall when he ripped my old club shortly after I joined and I was heartbroken (it quickly fell out of the top 100 shortly thereafter). Of course that's back when I thought rankings were the best thing since sliced bread.  Unfortunately a lot of people still do.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 10:02:53 AM by Jud_T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Kevin_D

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #137 on: August 23, 2014, 11:05:56 AM »
If he rated it a 10, or a 5, would it be any more or less enjoyable for its members to play?

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #138 on: August 23, 2014, 11:08:00 AM »
Brad Klein was certainly "on site".  I bumped in to him on the back porch after the round(s).  It was very hot that day.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #139 on: August 23, 2014, 11:11:36 AM »
Do you have any 8s?

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #140 on: August 23, 2014, 11:14:01 AM »
If he rated it a 10, or a 5, would it be any more or less enjoyable for its members to play?


I've already stated that he was wrong about the White so he is most likely wrong about the Red. Nothing would have made me happier than if Brad Klein had published an opinion saying that the White was a better course.

My guests tell me that all the time.

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #141 on: August 23, 2014, 11:25:33 AM »
If he rated it a 10, or a 5, would it be any more or less enjoyable for its members to play?


I've already stated that he was wrong about the White so he is most likely wrong about the Red. Nothing would have made me happier than if Brad Klein had published an opinion saying that the White was a better course.

My guests tell me that all the time.

LOL
It's all about the golf!

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #142 on: August 23, 2014, 11:40:18 AM »
If he rated it a 10, or a 5, would it be any more or less enjoyable for its members to play?


I've already stated that he was wrong about the White so he is most likely wrong about the Red. Nothing would have made me happier than if Brad Klein had published an opinion saying that the White was a better course.

My guests tell me that all the time.

I guess that would make you deliriously happy...  8) ::) ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mr. Herrmann rates Dismal River Red a 9 too
« Reply #143 on: August 23, 2014, 12:09:47 PM »
Back on topic.    I thought the dunes trick the golfer into playing unwise shots OR not knowing how to play he correct shot.   VERY cool!

I also love how some shots,bring the distant blowout into the players mind as a good aiming point., the road crossing of the 10 the the smallness you feel when playing  toward the horseshoes, and he free form style of the teeing area areas.  

The green contours also are winners, and they start with the quirky first.

I've plated it twice, toured it pre, pre, and, way pre. I'm impressed with how Tom used the macro landscape to frame his pictures. IMO, It's better than Pac Dunes, in that aspect, because the routing didn't have to be compromised or interrupted. Ocean smotion emotion be damned.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Peter Pallotta

Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #144 on: August 23, 2014, 12:40:34 PM »
While for some reason a part of me is skeptical of such high and early praise, I'm reminded of the earliest co-temporaneous reviews of great golden age designs. Right from opening day courses like NGLA and Pine Valley were recognized as outstanding examples of golf course architecture. That decades later those assessments have proved/remained accurate suggests that such high and early praise (from knowledgable observers) can indeed stand the test of time, and that an enduring reputation for greatness can be established right off the bat. Fascinating to me that this is the case, given the (partly) subjective nature and appeal of arts-crafts such as golf course architecture.

Peter

Mike Bowen

Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #145 on: August 23, 2014, 01:02:36 PM »
If I were to build a course, the #1 person I would want a positive review from would be Dr. Klein.  I think he is a great judge of talent, much like Derek Jeter.  ;)

This thread also reminds me how many customers I have had at my course say that Jasper Park Lodge sucked and that our course is better.  It's not.  Although these people are entitled to their opinion, they should think about checking themselves into an institution.

Ratings are generally better than anything else at sparking conversation.  I can see why Pac Dunes is rated the highest of the Bandon courses, but I prefer Old Mac and Trails.  The fact that Pac is generally higher rated only makes my comparisons of the courses more interesting. 

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #146 on: August 24, 2014, 08:34:12 AM »
Bump
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #147 on: August 24, 2014, 08:54:02 AM »
And, as for the courses at Bandon... they obviously know how to grow grass out there as Old Mac and the Par 3 course have good greens. But, to charge premium prices for the sorry surfaces presented at Pacific Dunes and Bandon Dunes is a shame. I don't care what the reason might be... fix the problem. Again, if these greens were on a prominent course in the UK (which is the standard they use for comparison) the staff would be tossed. There is no issue with these courses that they can't fix if they want... they just don't seem to want to fix them.

Michael:

It has been three years since I played Pacific Dunes, and I'm sorry to hear the greens are getting bad.  Honestly, though, it was probably inevitable.  The course has been in play for 15 years at around 35,000 rounds per year ... it is amazing there is any grass on it at all.

Your comparison of Pacific and Bandon to Old Mac and the Preserve is probably unfair.  As you said, they know how to grow grass in Bandon; the differences are just a question of age and traffic.  It's hard to keep the poa annua out of the greens over time in a place with such a wet winter season and plenty of winter traffic.  Old Mac is just younger, and less contaminated.  We did go to greater lengths to clean up the sand for the greens there, but I doubt it will hold off the poa contamination for much longer.

To be fair, you don't know what it takes to grow bentgrass or fescue out in the sand hills, either.  There is no choice out there that makes life easy, because it is not easy to make any of the choices work in such a harsh environment.

Tom - You are absolutely correct... I have no idea how to grow grass. Couldn't even do a good job of it in my own yard! But, I do know how to run a business, and when your #1 product is having problems you move Heaven & Earth to fix it. Those 35.000 rounds translate into a lot of money over 15 years. Are they waiting for business to fall off before they refurbish the course? I always use Caledonia as the standard to judge course operations...they close their course when they aerate the greens. Close the course! They would rather shut down for two weeks than have customers experience a course with punched greens. Bandon is quite a success story and I love visiting there. But, I was sorely disappointed in the presentation of Pacific Dunes and Bandon Dunes during my July 4th weekend visit. I'm a member at Deal and I can tell you that those conditions would not be accepted at Deal. Not even close. And, Deal is not at the top of the list when it comes to conditioning.

As for the sandhills... I can appreciate the harsh environment and the challenge it presents to growing grass. My standard out there is Sand Hills. They seem to have figured it out. Why reinvent the wheel? Ballyneal is such a great course. I'd love to play it with Sand Hill's greens... now, that would really be something!!!
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #148 on: August 24, 2014, 12:14:43 PM »
Mike, it is significant to mention that Sand Hills has now been grassed for nearly 20 years and in that time they have had periods of turf issues.  The sward has been overtaken by poa and then reclaimed with fescue and it has been a dance orchestrated by two highly competent and respected turf managers in the past.  Not to mention the wind erosion.  All sand hill courses undergo these turf challenges in their respective micro environments.  As for Bandon, it is a climate different than Deal and the Pac Norwest is notorious for ripe conditions of poa proliferation at a rapid and unmanageable rate. 

The time window to deal with turf species management and cultural practices is also vastly different, particularly considering the short golf operational season, timed with short window to halt golf inorder to deal with macro turf treatments and species management. 

I'm not a turf expert but I do know that it is not a proper comparison to say that one of these courses can manage better or more successfully in their cultural and turf species management and invasive suppression than another.  They all have the goal of business success or viability, obviously.  I think the very nature of economic self interest will cause their professional staff and decision makers to try various approaches, always experiment with new ideas, and seek the best and highest practices that support their business success.  That is why they are the professionals they are.  And, they do collaborate and share ideas in their turf professional circles, whether it is a circle formed in a tavern or a symposium organized by state and national turf professional orgs.  None of these big time golf resort complex venues employ chimps for turf managers, they'll keep working to give you the best experience possible within the environmental and climate challenges they must cope with. 

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #149 on: August 24, 2014, 12:20:13 PM »
Michael,

So it's the business side of golf that can bother you, which can manifest itself in conditioning.  ;)

Thanks

It's all about the golf!

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