[John Kavanaugh]

Wouldn't it be funny if Brad wasn't actually ever out there?  I tweet is hardly proof.  With the lack of cell coverage it is a perfect place to tell the wife that you are going and will be out of touch for a few days.  Somebody needs to check the weather charts and see if it was really 104 degs the day of his tweet.

[Michael George]

Mac - In late June and July, I don't know how they get anything to grow in that area.  Kudos to Sand Hills, Dismal River and Ballyneal for making it work.  If the tops of slopes are the only problem, that is incredible.  With those temperatures, I am surprised that there aren't more prairie fires.  Man is it hot.

Michael W - re: the horse flies, I understand that the area by the river used to be inhabited by a lot of cattle, which, of course, collected a lot of horse flies.  I understand that they will slowly become less of a problem in the area now that the cattle are gone.  Those things are nasty though.

Others - I preface this comment by saying that Sand Hills is my favorite golf course played to date.  However, why does it have to be the standard because it was first.  That makes no sense.  Do we measure all US courses still against Chicago GC?  Was it acceptable for NGLA to set a new standard when it opened long after several other great courses?  Was it acceptable for Pine Valley to do the same again?   If someone thinks a course is better than Sand Hills, that is fine.  For instance, Bill Coore was quoted about Cabot Cliffs - “I’ll put it this way, and it’s a little like I felt about Sand Hills: If we don’t build something outstanding, we will have failed."  Is the guy that built Sand Hills an idiot now?  

[Pete_Pittock]

How does one rate the bugs coming home along the river valley on the Red??  I gave them a  -6 during the 5th Major ..

FYI, the "bugs" are seasonal.
Yes, they were present during the 5th Major. When I was at DR July 26th they were gone, I never pulled the spray out of my bag.  

So the premise of the 5th Major is to fill the place when the flies are biting?

Sand Hills also has a one mile drive on a dirt road and at least 1/3 of the raters gave it a 10, so apparently it is not as much a problem as some might think.

Dismal River - congratulations on upgrading to such a high plateau.

[Keith Grande]

Wouldn't it be funny if Brad wasn't actually ever out there?  I tweet is hardly proof.  With the lack of cell coverage it is a perfect place to tell the wife that you are going and will be out of touch for a few days.  Somebody needs to check the weather charts and see if it was really 104 degs the day of his tweet.

ask and ye shal receive...

  USA
Mullen NE Hourly Weather Data For July 22 2014

Hour Outlook Temperature Pressure Visibility Humidity Heat Index Dew Point Wind Air Quality
         
00
Fair 77.0 F (25.1 C) 29.98 10.00 46  54.9 F (12.7 C) Calm 
01
Fair 78.0 F (25.5 C) 29.98 10.00 41  52.2 F (11.2 C) Calm 
02
Fair 71.0 F (21.5 C) 29.98 10.00 59  55.6 F (13.1 C) Calm 
03
Fair 73.0 F (22.7 C) 30.05 10.00 51  53.6 F (12.0 C) West at 8.1 MPH (7 KT) 
04
Fair 78.0 F (25.8 C) 30.10 10.00 57  61.9 F (16.6 C) from the North at 15.0 gusting to 25.3 MPH (13 gusting to 22 KT) 
05
Fair 75.0 F (24.0 C) 30.12 10.00 68  63.7 F (17.6 C) from the North at 12.7 gusting to 18.4 MPH (11 gusting to 16 KT) 
06
Fair 74.0 F (23.5 C) 30.11 10.00 69  63.5 F (17.5 C) Northeast at 10.4 MPH (9 KT) 
07
Fair 73.0 F (22.5 C) 30.08 10.00 69  61.7 F (16.5 C) East at 10.4 MPH (9 KT) 
08
Fair 72.0 F (22.1 C) 30.12 10.00 72  62.4 F (16.9 C) North at 8.1 MPH (7 KT) 
09
Fair 76.0 F (24.4 C) 30.15 10.00 61  61.5 F (16.4 C) Northeast at 10.4 MPH (9 KT) 
10 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
11 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
12
Fair 86.0 F (30.1 C) 30.19 10.00 40  59.4 F (15.2 C) Southeast at 6.9 MPH (6 KT) 
13
Fair 89.0 F (31.5 C) 30.21 10.00 35  57.6 F (14.2 C) Northeast at 8.1 MPH (7 KT) 
14
Fair 90.0 F (32.0 C) 30.21 10.00 35  58.3 F (14.6 C) Northeast at 6.9 MPH (6 KT) 
15
Fair 89.0 F (31.9 C) 30.21 10.00 37  59.7 F (15.4 C) from the East at 9.2 gusting to 16.1 MPH (8 gusting to 14 KT) 
16 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
17
Fair 90.0 F (32.0 C) 30.22 10.00 41  63.0 F (17.2 C) from the East at 10.4 gusting to 16.1 MPH (9 gusting to 14 KT) 
18 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
19 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
20
Fair 85.0 F (29.4 C) 30.21 10.00 50  64.0 F (17.8 C) East at 11.5 MPH (10 KT) 
21
Fair 79.0 F (26.1 C) 30.23 10.00 58  63.1 F (17.3 C) East at 9.2 MPH (8 KT) 
22
Fair 74.0 F (23.5 C) 30.24 10.00 64  61.2 F (16.2 C) East at 8.1 MPH (7 KT) 
23
Fair 71.0 F (21.7 C) 30.28 10.00 71  61.0 F (16.1 C) East at 6.9 MPH 

[Tom_Doak]

So the premise of the 5th Major is to fill the place when the flies are biting?

Pete:

The traditional dates of the 5th Major were set before the Red course was conceived.

The fact that the event fills the place when the flies are biting, and that the flies bite a bunch of guys on GCA, is only a happy coincidence.   

[Howard Riefs]

9.0 is also the over/under for the number of pages in this thread.

My money is on the over.

[PCCraig]

Pat, I'm a bit shocked it took Terry's post to allow you to suspect Dismal Doak is good. Many threads and
Thoughts all over this site about it. From those who have taken the time to go play it, it is pretty unanimous that it is good, at a minimum. But to Dick's point, just how good is a personal opinion that can only be gauged after you've played it. As we all value different things in different amounts.

I never said I didn't suspect that is a good course. Only that Terry's post was the only one that began to discuss why it is supposedly better than other high ranking modern courses on the GW scale.

Brad's article is a bold statement. One I think worth discussing given his background. However all we get are posts like the above that say things like "it is pretty unanimous that it is good." Unanimous from which standpoint? The memberships? Members who post on GCA? The owners? The architects? Tell me in tangible ways why its deserving of a #2 modern ranking, skipping the pork chop, and let's have a real discussion.

[PCCraig]

"fair and balanced" is Terry Lavin's, presumably because Terry properly genuflected to Sand Hills at the start.

Not exactly...in a discussion of rankings he was the only person who bothered to compare it to other golf courses its ranked against. It just so happens that Sand Hills is #1 on the list that Brad edits.

[John Kavanaugh]

Pat,

Isn't it amazing that we had 80 people out for the 5th Major and not a single word was written about the course until Brad's article.  It's far too exhausting and somewhat insulting to discuss the course mostly with people who have never been there.  That ship has sailed and the manifest was burned.

Why not start a thread on the success of the Ballyneal green conversion to bentgrass?  Same reasons.

[Jason Topp]

Of course it makes no sense to compare a single score to the aggregate average score used in GolfWeek's list, especially when DRR already has a score and a ranking on GolfWeek's list for 2014.

No sense? Philosophically, ranking golf courses may make no sense, but comparing Brad's single ranking to an aggregate makes perfect sense, as long as one remembers the specifics.

You cannot equate a cumulative average score to an individual rating.  There are guidelines for individual rankings and if a rater truly believes a course belongs in the top 5 modern in the country, she would give it a rating higher than 9.  The average score will be lower than the individual score for the very top rated courses because it is inevitable that opinions will vary.

There are guidelines for individual rankings.   

[Tom_Doak]

"fair and balanced" is Terry Lavin's, presumably because Terry properly genuflected to Sand Hills at the start.

Not exactly...in a discussion of rankings he was the only person who bothered to compare it to other golf courses its ranked against. It just so happens that Sand Hills is #1 on the list that Brad edits.

PCraig:

To be fair, every time a discussion of either course at Dismal River has compared the courses to others -- and especially to Sand Hills or Ballyneal, their closest cousins -- it has started a s***storm on this site.  [I could have meant sandstorm, I guess.]  I have no desire to go there again, so I'd prefer to let Brad's article to speak for itself.  And he didn't compare it to other courses, directly.  He evaluated the strengths and weaknesses according to the criteria he's put in place.

For what it's worth, I tried to do a head-to-head comparison of Streamsong (Blue) and Dismal (Red), and found them about equal, which is what the GOLFWEEK rankings have them.  Of course, I would have them both kicking the ass of Dallas National, which GOLFWEEK has slightly higher than either, but I would just be accused of bias in saying so.  I'm biased -- but I'd love to see someone else do a head to head between Dismal and Dallas National.

[Don Mahaffey]

PCraig,
If you have issue with what Brad wrote, maybe you should talk to Brad.
I think he laid it out fairly well and I know Brad has a pretty good feel for the course as he has been out there a few times including at the beginning when it was just being mowed out of the prairie grass.

I've written plenty about the course and I feel it is as good, and as fun, as any course I've ever played. Most importantly the people who visit seem to like it as well.

Brad wrote the article, not those of us involved in the course or DR members. And while most of us probably agree with what Brad wrote, I don't quite see how it is now our job to justify his number.

In any case those who think it worth a visit will make the effort, and then there are those who will never visit yet seem like it is their calling to negate any recognition. I don't understand that thinking, but I know I no longer have the patience to debate them.

I think DR Red is one of the best golf courses in the world and I will always make an effort to get out there whenever possible.

[Terry Lavin]

I second Don Mahaffey!!!

Nothin wrong with educated passion.

[Sean_A]

and then there are those who will never visit yet seem like it is their calling to negate any recognition

Don - a little overboard - maybe?  Do folks have to gush and fawn not to be considered negating?  

Perhaps people need to keep in mind that we are often splitting hairs among the good, great and sometimes the best courses in the world.  If we all remember this context and that we are far more often than not, mostly in agreement, life will be smoother for those who take golf architecture personally.  

Ciao

[Sam Morrow]

It never ceases to amaze me how much Dismal River can get peoples panties in a wad.

[DMoriarty]

You Dismal boys and your buddies are pure class.  This afternoon I received a message from gca.com member Barry Doyle, whom I don't know and don't care to know.  It was full of nasty name calling and false accusations. According to Mr. Doyle, if I don't "shut the fuck up" about Dismal River, he will take his lies public.

Mr. Doyle,  If you have anything to say to me - or about me -  I'd prefer you say it publicly.  You probably ought to get your facts straight before you do, though.

Same goes for the rest of you gossips.  


And some wonder why I have no interest in visiting the place.  

[Terry Lavin]

Oh boy. That's revolting.

[Brent Hutto]

...

[Mike Bowen]

I find it humourous, but also sad they way some talk on this site.  I have lost respect for many people who I have never met by the aggressive comments some make.  I don't understand the purpose of most of the negativity.

I respect Mr. Doak and Dr. Klein and would love to one day play Dismal Red.  Until that time I will continue to enjoy what both have to say about the course.

[Sam Morrow]

I find it humourous, but also sad they way some talk on this site.  I have lost respect for many people who I have never met by the aggressive comments some make.  I don't understand the purpose of most of the negativity.

I respect Mr. Doak and Dr. Klein and would love to one day play Dismal Red.  Until that time I will continue to enjoy what both have to say about the course.

well said

[Eric Smith]

Barry Doyle is a great man and I'm glad to call him my friend. If he did write those things in a private message I can only hope that in the future he learns not to send private messages to David.

[Dan Herrmann]

Back on topic.    I thought the dunes trick the golfer into playing unwise shots OR not knowing how to play he correct shot.   VERY cool!

I also love how some shots,bring the distant blowout into the players mind as a good aiming point., the road crossing of the 10 the the smallness you feel when playing  toward the horseshoes, and he free form style of the teeing area areas.  

The green contours also are winners, and they start with the quirky first.

[Sam Morrow]

I haven't seen the completed Doak and in addition to seeing that I'm really excited about seeing the new Dismal Putting Course

[John Kirk]

"The finest course of its kind in western southwest Hooker County."

--  John M. Kirk, MBA, Portland State University, class of 1995

[Sam Morrow]

"The finest course of its kind in western southwest Hooker County."

--  John M. Kirk, MBA, Portland State University, class of 1995

Congrats to all involved

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