News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #75 on: August 22, 2014, 11:13:25 AM »
I think it's a pretty high bar to compete with Sand Hills, which doesn't have a weak hole, IMHO, and it was first in the Sand Hills and the first of its type built in a very long time.  As for the other courses listed by Pat Craig, I've played all except the Ocean Course at Kiawah (my bad) and I think Dismal Red belongs in that league.  It lacks the eye candy of the Pacific Ocean that the Bandon courses have.  Maybe it doesn't have the Long Island cachet that Friar's Head has.  As for Whistling Straits, there's no contest: that course is entirely manufactured, overdone and a bit too dizzying on the senses.  It also has a stupid finishing hole.  It's sort of like Shadow Creek in Sheboygan. Dismal's setting is just jaw-dropping good.  As Brad might intone, the landforms are ideally suited for golf.  What Doak and company have created is a golf course that will fairly compel EVERYBODY who plays Sand Hills to take the quick trip over to Dismal.  Say what you will about the Nicklaus course, it never had that sort of allure.  The comparisons can begin to take hold after a few years of play, but I think even the Sand Hills faithful, me among them (it's my #1 course ever played), will think that the Red is a worthy colleague of its awesome neighbor.

So, I don't know if Dismal Red is a 9.0 or not.  I've resisted the urge to be a rater, but I certainly do repose a lot of confidence in Brad Klein's ability to rate a golf course and he's nobody's shill, that's for sure.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #76 on: August 22, 2014, 11:31:23 AM »
It doesn't matter what Brad's personal rankings are. My point is that his "9" would rank it as second on the Modern list. If he, or anyone else on his rating panel, has that many 9's on his personal list the scale is off.

No, you have to compare apples with apples. Instead you are comparing Brad's personal ranking of this course, with the overall rankings from all Golfweek raters.  You have to compare Brad with Brad, or overall with overall.  

I don't know Brad's rankings of other courses.  He might have several 10's out there, and a number of 9s.  Either way would mean he doesn't rank DR second among moderns.  The only way for us to know is to see his personal rankings.  i.e. you might be right, but we don't have enough data to know.  

We do know how Golfweek overall ranks DR.  39th among moderns, with an average score of 7.42.  39th is not 2nd, and 7.42 is not 9.  


Bruce Wellmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #77 on: August 22, 2014, 11:37:31 AM »
Looking down on #17.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #78 on: August 22, 2014, 11:44:28 AM »
Brad was wrong when he scored Dismal White at 6.6 so he is most likely wrong with the Red at 9.0.  I give each opinion equal weight.

A couple of facts:  The entry road is only 17 miles in length and the conditioning during the 5th Major was modern perfect.  I would love to hear if the conditioning has deteriorated since June or what anyone has seen as substandard this year.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #79 on: August 22, 2014, 11:51:52 AM »
John was just there 2 weeks ago.  Turf is as fast and firm as any course I've ever played (GB&I, Bandon, anywhere).  Greens were fast and ran true.  There are just some thin grass issues at the tops of some slopes and the most wind exposed portions of the property.  It is VERY playable and the firm turf makes everything come to life, but the look of some of the spots isn't perfect to the golfer who likes the manicured look.

EDIT...5 green has some patches of grass that were bumpy.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 11:54:03 AM by Mac Plumart »
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #80 on: August 22, 2014, 12:00:21 PM »
It doesn't matter what Brad's personal rankings are. My point is that his "9" would rank it as second on the Modern list. If he, or anyone else on his rating panel, has that many 9's on his personal list the scale is off.

No, you have to compare apples with apples. Instead you are comparing Brad's personal ranking of this course, with the overall rankings from all Golfweek raters.  You have to compare Brad with Brad, or overall with overall.  





Exactly.  If he gave 10's or 9.5's to Sand Hills, Friar's Head, Pac Dunes, Old Mac, Sebonack and Bandon Trails, and maybe others, then he'd have all of them ahead of Dismal Doak--even if other raters didn't score those courses as highly (such that their overall ratings are lower than 9).  You could then argue about why none of those courses deserves a 9.5 or 10 in Brad's mind, which seems like an unproductive argument.   

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #81 on: August 22, 2014, 12:03:13 PM »
Brad was wrong when he scored Dismal White at 6.6 so he is most likely wrong with the Red at 9.0.  I give each opinion equal weight.


Found this from his rating of Dismal White

1. Ease and intimacy of routing: 7

This is a big property; it’s a mile from the clubhouse to the first tee, where you'’ll also find Jack’s Shack. (Don’t miss the chili!) Once on the course, you are immersed in the dunes and wandering around them half lost, half in awe.



Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #82 on: August 22, 2014, 12:03:57 PM »
...
I'm not a fan of the one mile ride in a gas powered cart to get to the first tee... but, they had no other choice. Still, it detracts from the experience for me, especially since you've got that same one mile trip back after the round.
...

I really don't get why people are making such a big issue about this.
At Bandon, you have to take a gas powered shuttle to Old MacDonald, for example.
I have never seen that mentioned in a review of the course.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #83 on: August 22, 2014, 12:07:15 PM »
I would love to hear if the conditioning has deteriorated since June or what anyone has seen as substandard this year.

Brad visited the course a month ago, July 22.

https://twitter.com/BKleinGolfweek/status/491456957627510786
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #84 on: August 22, 2014, 12:15:58 PM »
I think it's a pretty high bar to compete with Sand Hills, which doesn't have a weak hole, IMHO, and it was first in the Sand Hills and the first of its type built in a very long time.  As for the other courses listed by Pat Craig, I've played all except the Ocean Course at Kiawah (my bad) and I think Dismal Red belongs in that league.  It lacks the eye candy of the Pacific Ocean that the Bandon courses have.  Maybe it doesn't have the Long Island cachet that Friar's Head has.  As for Whistling Straits, there's no contest: that course is entirely manufactured, overdone and a bit too dizzying on the senses.  It also has a stupid finishing hole.  It's sort of like Shadow Creek in Sheboygan. Dismal's setting is just jaw-dropping good.  As Brad might intone, the landforms are ideally suited for golf.  What Doak and company have created is a golf course that will fairly compel EVERYBODY who plays Sand Hills to take the quick trip over to Dismal.  Say what you will about the Nicklaus course, it never had that sort of allure.  The comparisons can begin to take hold after a few years of play, but I think even the Sand Hills faithful, me among them (it's my #1 course ever played), will think that the Red is a worthy colleague of its awesome neighbor.

The first high quality post in favor of Dismal Doak. Thanks, Terry.
H.P.S.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #85 on: August 22, 2014, 12:19:09 PM »
Thank goodness we have Brad K offering up his ranking of DRR.  Thank goodness we have ratings to measure our opinions and values and a measuring stick to evaluate our intrepid golf pursuits as validation that we are the ones who truly have the acumen to opine on the distinctions of which is #1 and which is number 2, or 3,4,5....  We all know how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.  

But, I suppose I'm no different.  I've been lucky enough to have played each of the Sand Hill/Chop Hill suspects at least twice and one 6X.  Catch me on any given day, and my eval of which 'I like best' (not rank per se) will vary.  

I also like to compare or consider the back story on each project, and the on-going struggles to maintain and present a world class golf experience and part of the equation of which I like best.  Even at that, my personal favorite can slide with the years as they pass, and go up and down by the current state of the operational aspects of the facilities.  But, who can visit each of the big four and minor players each year or season?

Sand Hills Golf Club will always be "The First".   It is the standard by all the ones that followed.  Not even once in this discussion (unless I messed it in passing) was The Prairie Club two courses mentioned.  Perhaps because we are ranking and it never was in the top tier of national or global "best modern".  Well hell, who has seen them all to be able to say definitively?   ::)

What I saw this year was Sand Hills GC from the Superintendent's perspective (Kyle Hegland) and a detailed demonstration of some of the new things that are being fine tuned and remodeled/restored on the course, along with observing the turf conditions were the best I ever saw there since my first look in 1996!  The tune-up is being done with advise and consent and some detailed deliberation of Mr. Youngscapp, C&C, and Kyle.  I dn't know if or what may be going on there in the guest facilities, but know the standard set by Mr. Youngscapp and GM Clint, is a high bar.  

Yet, while I didn't have a discussion with Mr. Jagger Mandrell, Super of DR red and white, I did get some perspective from Chris along with my personal observations.  Just on logistics alone, I'd have to say that the job done by the DR team to make this a debatable discussion of ranking 1 or 2 or where ever these golf courses fall in ranking of Mr. Klein or the magazine, or you personally, is second to none.  Looking at the massive land parcel, the half hour drive to move equipment in and out, the quality of the guest cabins, the staff to prepare and serve the grub and libations and the effort to make you feel a special guest, is monumental.  Between DR and SHGC, there is no daylight IMHO.  They are both world class #1s.

BallyNeal, and Prairie Club have similar challenges, obviously.  I think they have to look to DR and SHGC for inspiration.

But we are talking architecture/golf course design and in futility presenting our case for which number to assign which course.  I say, don't listen to Brad Klein, or anyone else including me, with the exception of to take my word for it to try to play'em all if you have the means and time, and then come back and enjoy and join the debate of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #86 on: August 22, 2014, 12:30:54 PM »
Garland...great point. I never understood that either. It is, essentially, a private resort. With personal cottages, and communal clubhouse, with two golf courses and 3,000 acres. You get a cart to drive you around, just like your get shuttled at Bandon or like you drive your car around Kiawah.  Heck, or drive around Pinehurst. But, we can all have our own opinions.

Pat, I'm a bit shocked it took Terry's post to allow you to suspect Dismal Doak is good. Many threads and
Thoughts all over this site about it. From those who have taken the time to go play it, it is pretty unanimous that it is good, at a minimum. But to Dick's point, just how good is a personal opinion that can only be gauged after you've played it. As we all value different things in different amounts.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #87 on: August 22, 2014, 12:31:50 PM »
...
I'm not a fan of the one mile ride in a gas powered cart to get to the first tee... but, they had no other choice. Still, it detracts from the experience for me, especially since you've got that same one mile trip back after the round.
...

I really don't get why people are making such a big issue about this.
At Bandon, you have to take a gas powered shuttle to Old MacDonald, for example.
I have never seen that mentioned in a review of the course.


You really can't see why at a golf club (as opposed to tee times at Bandon) it might take something away from the experience in not being able to look out the clubhouse window to see if the hole is open and jump on the first tee rather than find someone to drive you to the tee? I haven't been there and it's a small issue but it can't be ideal --having 36 holes more than makes up for it though.
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #88 on: August 22, 2014, 12:34:40 PM »
Buck...

Getting times to play is not an issue. You don't need to "jump" on an open hole. Play whenever you want, for as long as you want.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #89 on: August 22, 2014, 12:41:35 PM »
I would love Bandon that much more if they gave me a personal golf cart to drive where ever I want, whenever I want.  It's a good thing, a very, very good thing.  Those carts work after dark you know.

Rob Curtiss

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #90 on: August 22, 2014, 12:45:08 PM »
I was fortunate to play the Dismal courses and Sand Hills just weeks apart and I saw a lot of similarities. The new Doak course is awesome- a fun play - and the conditions in July played F/F. I do think that Sand Hills is better but not by too much- Every hole at SH is a winner.

A note - that it is a long ride to each of the course- both Dismal courses and SH - from the clubhouse- I think it adds to the seclusion and the rustic feel of it. It makes it feel more like you are in the middle of your own world.

I think we need some more love for the Nicklaus course- some of those greens are just plane fun- never thought I would say that about Nicklaus greens

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #91 on: August 22, 2014, 12:50:14 PM »
It's been fascinating to watch this thread develop and the nay-sayers come out.

In previous Dismal threads, all the nay-saying has been blamed on people who are involved with Dismal going over the top in talking about the courses, as if someone had to be a nay-sayer to balance out the homerism.  

On this thread everyone who was involved with developing and building the course has stayed quiet, and let Brad's review stand on its own.  Yet we've heard complaints about the ride from the clubhouse, the conditioning, the deer flies, etc. ... everything but the golf holes and the fire pit and the drinks.  [Nobody complains about the drinks.]

From all accounts Brad really loved the course and especially the routing of it ... no complaints about where it starts and finishes from him.  He did not compare it to Sand Hills or anyplace else.  PCraig has done so like twelve times as a straw man to try and start an argument.  Of many posts about the quality of the course, the only one he has accepted as "fair and balanced" is Terry Lavin's, presumably because Terry properly genuflected to Sand Hills at the start.

The funny thing is that several of the courses that Dismal is being compared to are also my designs.  I don't think the comparisons are unwarranted at all, though I don't have much of an opinion about whether it is better than Ballyneal or Old Macdonald ... I haven't played it enough to be able to split those hairs, and I really don't need to try.  

Brad's 9.0 doesn't mean Dismal is the 2nd best modern course or the tenth, it just means it belongs in the conversation.  After that it's all a matter of opinion, and the consensus has yet to be finalized.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #92 on: August 22, 2014, 12:57:05 PM »
And, as for the courses at Bandon... they obviously know how to grow grass out there as Old Mac and the Par 3 course have good greens. But, to charge premium prices for the sorry surfaces presented at Pacific Dunes and Bandon Dunes is a shame. I don't care what the reason might be... fix the problem. Again, if these greens were on a prominent course in the UK (which is the standard they use for comparison) the staff would be tossed. There is no issue with these courses that they can't fix if they want... they just don't seem to want to fix them.

Michael:

It has been three years since I played Pacific Dunes, and I'm sorry to hear the greens are getting bad.  Honestly, though, it was probably inevitable.  The course has been in play for 15 years at around 35,000 rounds per year ... it is amazing there is any grass on it at all.

Your comparison of Pacific and Bandon to Old Mac and the Preserve is probably unfair.  As you said, they know how to grow grass in Bandon; the differences are just a question of age and traffic.  It's hard to keep the poa annua out of the greens over time in a place with such a wet winter season and plenty of winter traffic.  Old Mac is just younger, and less contaminated.  We did go to greater lengths to clean up the sand for the greens there, but I doubt it will hold off the poa contamination for much longer.

To be fair, you don't know what it takes to grow bentgrass or fescue out in the sand hills, either.  There is no choice out there that makes life easy, because it is not easy to make any of the choices work in such a harsh environment.

Jeff Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #93 on: August 22, 2014, 01:47:12 PM »
Sorry for going off topic but-

"It has been three years since I played Pacific Dunes, and I'm sorry to hear the greens are getting bad.  Honestly, though, it was probably inevitable.  The course has been in play for 15 years at around 35,000 rounds per year ... it is amazing there is any grass on it at all."

How does a developer plan for such an outcome?

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #94 on: August 22, 2014, 01:49:46 PM »
Tom,  It is a bit much for you to suggest that this thread has been free of the "homerism" and over-hype that has plagued the Dismal River for years.  The very premise of the thread is to take a single rating by "Dr. Klein" and compare it (favorably) to the aggregate GolfWeek rankings. Congratulations were handed out to all (well deserved I am sure) and it was even suggested that "if that number holds up, that would be 2 total on the modern list."  

Of course it makes no sense to compare a single score to the aggregate average score used in GolfWeek's list, especially when DRR already has a score and a ranking on GolfWeek's list for 2014. The score is 7.42 and the ranking is 39th.  Dismal River Red trails Sand Hills (#1 at 9.22) by 1.8 points.  Dismal River Red leads Valhalla (#100 at 6.92) by 0.5 points.  According to the 2014 Golfweek list, here are Dismal River Red's closest comparable courses:



http://golfweek.com/news/2014/mar/19/golf-courses-golfweeks-best-modern-courses-2014/

 .  
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #95 on: August 22, 2014, 01:50:22 PM »
Sorry for going off topic but-

"It has been three years since I played Pacific Dunes, and I'm sorry to hear the greens are getting bad.  Honestly, though, it was probably inevitable.  The course has been in play for 15 years at around 35,000 rounds per year ... it is amazing there is any grass on it at all."

How does a developer plan for such an outcome?

When I played Pac Dunes in January, the greens were good. Much better than two and three years before.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #96 on: August 22, 2014, 01:52:04 PM »
What took so long?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #97 on: August 22, 2014, 02:00:55 PM »
David M:

Perhaps eventually a few more GOLFWEEK panelists will visit the course who actually know a good thing when they see it.

I would be happy to take Brad's review over theirs any time he provides one, though.  Interesting that his own ratings for the two courses at Streamsong are almost precisely the same as the panel's, but his view of Dismal is so different.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #98 on: August 22, 2014, 02:11:32 PM »
Dismal is better than it was last year and the years before that.  No big deal.  The unselfishness of the club allowing critics a chance to play before and during grow in is not a stance with that I necessary agreed.  I was wrong because all that matters is how good it is today or the next time I play.

I've got to give Brad credit for having a great sense of humor.  He has to be loving this.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #99 on: August 22, 2014, 02:24:17 PM »
Of course it makes no sense to compare a single score to the aggregate average score used in GolfWeek's list, especially when DRR already has a score and a ranking on GolfWeek's list for 2014.

No sense? Philosophically, ranking golf courses may make no sense, but comparing Brad's single ranking to an aggregate makes perfect sense, as long as one remembers the specifics.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back